The WealthTech Podcast Transcript

Host: Mark Wickersham

Guest: Jon Carroll

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Mark Wickersham: All right. Here we are on The WealthTech Podcast, I'm excited for this conversation kind of getting the band back together. You know, as as maybe some of the listeners may not know.

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Mark Wickersham: Jon and I used to work together back in the day. It's Family Office Metrics. So it's nice to reconnect and to have a chance to catch up.

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Mark Wickersham: And I know this conversation is gonna be great so why don't we just start off? Let's talk about Jon Carroll and family, and what's going on with that? I think there's a rumor, Jon, that you were retired, but I think that was a short lived. Rumor.

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Mark Wickersham: What is going on with

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Mark Wickersham: Jon Carroll and family. The new organization.

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Jon Carroll: Yeah. Well, well, thanks. Thanks for that. Intro mark. And yeah, Jon Carolyn family is basically Jon Carroll here, and Liz Luland there

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Jon Carroll: on your screen, and then also Liz's husband, Clayton, Luland.

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Jon Carroll: and Clayton, along with Liz, did work at Family Office Metrics, you know, with me and others, including you for a while.

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Jon Carroll: And you know I did, after my experience at Ey.

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Jon Carroll: decide to, you know, retire, and we move to Portugal.

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Jon Carroll: So that was that was sort of the big

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Jon Carroll: turning point for us. We sold the house and everything in in Florida, and

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Jon Carroll: and picked up and moved.

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Jon Carroll: To Lisbon, Portugal, where we are living now. And

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Jon Carroll: after I did that

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Jon Carroll: I got called by some people I got called by, you know 3, 3, or 4 different offices asking me, could you know, could I help them on this, that the other thing? And

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Jon Carroll: and you know all of the assignments sounded interesting, and were fitting in with my allocation of time. That I wanted to give

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Jon Carroll: away from, you know, spending time with my family

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Jon Carroll: so.

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Jon Carroll: that that went on, you know, really, until earlier this year.

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Jon Carroll: And in fact, one of the relationships is continuing.

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Jon Carroll: And

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Jon Carroll: you know, I was talking to Liz and I just you know I said, Liz. You know it'd be great to do something with you and Clayton again. I mean, I don't know what it is, Mark. But we I just I said, you know, I really I'd love to get back working. And so we talked about it because Liz has her own consulting practices, you may know, and she can say a few words about. But

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Jon Carroll: after she left the Ui because EY bought Family Office Metrics, and then I worked over there for 6 years. Liz worked there for a couple 3 years. Something like that.

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Jon Carroll: She went off and started her own practice, and has been, you know, successful doing digital marketing. As I said, you know, there's got to be a way that we can kind of put these things together in something called

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Jon Carroll: Jon Carroll and family. So what we've got is we've got sort of 2

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Jon Carroll: tracks going. One is Jon Carol family, where you do some consulting advisory work.

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Jon Carroll: And really, you know, Mark, our, our focus has always been on people process technology

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Jon Carroll: in the family office, whether it be single family office or multifamily office or advisor.

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Jon Carroll: a trust company.

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Jon Carroll: And then the other track is what we're what we're calling the family office project, which is really going to be content.

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Jon Carroll: oriented.

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Jon Carroll: And

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Jon Carroll: you know I was reading I

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Jon Carroll: I'm not as faithful as I should be, but I was reading LinkedIn today, and you know, Linda Mack

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Jon Carroll: every day, it almost, I think, every day, you know, publishes some sort of

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Jon Carroll: aphorism or saying, and today's saying, today's saying was. The meaning of life is to find your gift.

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Jon Carroll: and the purpose of life is to give it away.

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Jon Carroll: And you know

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Jon Carroll: that just is exactly kind of summarize how I'm feeling about this project, because it's not like I need to do this, but I want to do it, and I want to contribute

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Jon Carroll: to the broader body of knowledge for our community. And that's what's driving me. And that's what's really driving the content business.

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Jon Carroll: the family office project.

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Mark Wickersham: Tell me a little bit.

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Jon Carroll: When you have an opportunity mark to to get the band back together, as you say.

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Jon Carroll: You know you got to jump at it. I mean, I'm obviously not getting any younger. So this is a great, this just feels great to me, and I'm super happy and super excited about the things, because we've talked about quite a few things. We'll go through some of that with you today

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Jon Carroll: about what we're working on and what we'd like to do in the future.

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Mark Wickersham: I think that's a great example. Jon, I just want to circle back a little bit before we kind of dive a little bit deeper on some of the family office related matter. But the family office project

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Mark Wickersham: you got me, I mean. Tell me more.

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Jon Carroll: Yeah.

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Mark Wickersham: I think it is a good name.

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Jon Carroll: So.

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Jon Carroll: you know my wife told me over the years, Jon, you should write a book.

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Jon Carroll: You should write the book. You know what you've done. All the availability experiences work with hundreds of family offices and and trustees and

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Jon Carroll: executives. You should write the book

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Jon Carroll: well. The book has been written.

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Jon Carroll: but by a number of people you know not.

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Jon Carroll: Kirby Rossblock has written a great book

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Jon Carroll: about the family office, and when I read, I think, some posts by Kirby at 1 point, saying, You know, it was like 3 years start to finish when I started the thing, and then when it finally

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Jon Carroll: hit the shelves or hit Amazon. It was like 3 years had gone by, and I realized, you know, hey, I'm a little bit older. I may not have 3 years.

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Jon Carroll: so.

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Mark Wickersham: Don't say it, Jon, don't say it.

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Jon Carroll: I think if I say it enough, I'm gonna outlive it. How about that?

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Mark Wickersham: There you go!

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Jon Carroll: You know, I figured.

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Jon Carroll: why don't I do something that's immediate?

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Jon Carroll: And that means, and how do people get their information today? Most people get their information on their phone

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Jon Carroll: and through social media or other types of media.

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Jon Carroll: And

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Jon Carroll: that's, you know, and frankly given all the years decades I've been consulted. I know that people learn different ways. Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by listening. Some people

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Jon Carroll: learn by looking at numbers. Some people learn by looking at pictures.

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Jon Carroll: and

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Jon Carroll: you know there's just a huge audience, especially of younger folks. I think that

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Jon Carroll: pay attention to visual media. And so that's what the family office

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Jon Carroll: project is going to center its content. On and around is

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Jon Carroll: either shorts and longer form videos. So started with some interviews

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Jon Carroll: and probably will branch out and and do longer form

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Jon Carroll: interviews. I tell you, Mark, a great influence on me has been Joe Riley

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Jon Carroll: and Joe Riley. You know I've known him from the family wealth report and private asset management, I mean, and he's just. He does. He does a podcast he actually.

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Mark Wickersham: Yeah, that. Private capital.

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Jon Carroll: Yeah, that's an awesome, I mean. So I've listened to those. And he and I just went. I was inspired by that. I'm like, you know I should. I should do something like that. That's not. I can't remember trying to imitate Joe, but

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Jon Carroll: because I can't. But yeah.

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Mark Wickersham: Your own voice. Right? Yeah.

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Jon Carroll: Exactly. And I and I thought would be fun to put it you know, on video, like we're doing here with this.

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Jon Carroll: So.

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Jon Carroll: you know, I'm

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Jon Carroll: enthusiastic and excited about doing this

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Jon Carroll: work, sharing what I've learned, and with a special emphasis mark on.

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Jon Carroll: you know, doing the right things the right way.

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Jon Carroll: You know what are best practices, especially as it relates to operations, relates to risk management relates to technology and its use.

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Mark Wickersham: Yeah.

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Jon Carroll: And and

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Jon Carroll: and furthermore, like, how do we measure success? And what are the what are the KPIs, you know? And you know.

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Jon Carroll: and I've always been interested in this, but I could never really get anybody to pay me to do it. So now I'm now that I'm retired. I'm just that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to. I want to focus in on that and gather as much

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Jon Carroll: as I as I can to build up a data set

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Jon Carroll: for the community.

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Mark Wickersham: Well, I'm looking forward to seeing more about that. I agree. I mean, long form, short form, video audio. You need to hit it all nowadays right? People consume their content in different ways and at different times different media and different phones and all that. So let's talk about the consulting aspect of it. Family office.

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Mark Wickersham: you know, I think, especially in the areas of technology. Certainly

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Mark Wickersham: they can be single. Family office in particular can be a little insular just by their nature. When should a family office think about bringing in a a consultant? And what sort of value can a consultant provide.

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Jon Carroll: I think that

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Jon Carroll: any client or a family office especially, should hire a consultant

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Jon Carroll: when they're out of their depth, when they just don't know enough about the subject matter

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Jon Carroll: to really feel confident that they can make

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Jon Carroll: a competent decision.

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Jon Carroll: because that's what it's really all about. That's really the goal of the consultant is to educate

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Jon Carroll: his client or client to be able to make a competent decision. And you know good consultants will go through a process. They've got a structured process of learning and educating.

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Jon Carroll: at the end of which there'll be some sort of recommendation. They'll have a ranking

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Jon Carroll: 1st choice, second choice, or what you know, or whatever based upon certain criteria that they've

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Jon Carroll: understood, are important and key critical to the decision making by the client.

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Jon Carroll: And you know then the client takes it from there right? So that's the that's the purpose. Now the flip side is sometimes consultants can get in the way

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Jon Carroll: and

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Jon Carroll: muck it up.

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Jon Carroll: and by that I mean can get in between the client and the

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Jon Carroll: you know the vendor, let's say after decision is made.

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Jon Carroll: and can,

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Jon Carroll: you know, create more

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Jon Carroll: misunderstandings and than

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Jon Carroll: than understanding.

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Jon Carroll: So it's a it's sort of a mixed bag, and you know you got to be. You gotta know what you're doing when you hire a consultant.

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Jon Carroll: right?

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Jon Carroll: You need to. You need to make sure that the

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Jon Carroll: that consultant is

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Jon Carroll: has done this sort of thing before. I mean precisely the kind of

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Jon Carroll: job that you're asking this consultant to help you with.

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Jon Carroll: They should. That person should be able to say, Yeah, been there done that

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Jon Carroll: I can give you references.

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Jon Carroll: And, by the way, here's how to approach it.

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Jon Carroll: and I can give you a good quote. Right? Here's amount of time it's gonna take. Here's gonna do. Here's who's gonna do it.

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Jon Carroll: And

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Jon Carroll: here's what you're going to get

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Jon Carroll: right, so

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Jon Carroll: it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a mystery, and it should be very straightforward. And

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Jon Carroll: you know there's

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Jon Carroll: a almost a checklist mentality that you can go through

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Jon Carroll: as a buyer of consulting help

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Jon Carroll: that will enable you to, you know, to

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Jon Carroll: evaluate different consultants, because there's.

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Jon Carroll: you know, there's a lot of consultants.

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Jon Carroll: Yeah, and.

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Mark Wickersham: More so. It's a popular industry.

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Jon Carroll: Thing about consistency.

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Jon Carroll: Yeah, it's very low, low, low, low barrier to entry. I mean, you know.

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Jon Carroll: you lose your job.

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Jon Carroll: Now you're a consultant

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Jon Carroll: so.

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Jon Carroll: And that's fine. I'm not. I'm not knocking that. Everybody's got to start somewhere. But I'm just saying that, you know experience.

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Jon Carroll: you know, specific

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Jon Carroll: experience and technical capability, and also communication skills, key. And, Lizzie, I know you've done a lot of consulting work

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Jon Carroll: with your family enterprise clients. Maybe maybe you can

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Jon Carroll: add to, or or have it take a different.

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Mark Wickersham: Yeah, Liz, what's the key? What's the sign of a good consultant?

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Mark Wickersham: I think it's a good point you bring up about matching the potential project with the consultant, like, I think there are cases. And

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Mark Wickersham: you know, Jon, we've seen him where family offices will bring in. You know, they want some help. They bring an outside perspective. But there really isn't a commitment to change. So then, when the consultant makes recommendations on changes, and as you know, it's like change is hard, right? So there's resistance to change. No matter. You know how thoughtful it is or

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Mark Wickersham: whether it's the right direction, right? That can. It's impacts people's lives and impacts their days. There isn't always buy it on that case. So I think that's a good perspective about, you know, it's not just a consultant, but you know, you gotta also take a look at

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Mark Wickersham: the project. And then you know, really, at the end of the day, that the clients commitment to change because they're gonna come in and bring recommendations. And

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Mark Wickersham: you know, if you just continue to do things the same old way that I don't think that's what the consultants gonna recommend. Right. Pass that print out that that report and pass it to Susie across her desk. I don't.

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Mark Wickersham: you know.

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Mark Wickersham: But the.

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Jon Carroll: It. It happened rarely in in my career, but there there was. There were occasions where the client

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Jon Carroll: really was not going to take our advice.

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Jon Carroll: and we were recommending that they do something. And they said, No, we're not gonna do that. And so we

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Jon Carroll: had to part ways.

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Jon Carroll: Because if a client doesn't take the consultant's advice, then the consultant is kind of out.

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Jon Carroll: There's no need for that person to be there right, and you know, to follow along with Liz said about the the trust and the relationship.

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Jon Carroll: A consultant, you know, implies that it's a it's a short term kind of relationship, whereas outsourcing

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Jon Carroll: implies a longer term relationship. Same thing, though

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Jon Carroll: they're exactly they have a lot of the same requirements. Right? Do you understand? Have you done this? Do you understand our business? Do you have the experience or the right people gonna be working on this with us?

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Jon Carroll: Whether it's a consulting assign, you know, a 6 month job or a 12 month job, or for the next 5 or 10 years. So

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Jon Carroll: outsourcing is, I think, in in large respect, kind of what Liz was describing. Her relationship is with her clients, not

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Jon Carroll: so much project oriented, but longer, term outsource.

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Mark Wickersham: Yeah, let's talk about outsourcing is a great segue. Obviously, family offices can't do it. All. Shouldn't do it all. So when should firms think about, you know. Kind of a 2 part question right?

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Mark Wickersham: When should firms think about outsourcing? What should they think about outsourcing?

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Mark Wickersham: And then I want to get into a little bit later about how they manage that? Outsource about when

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Mark Wickersham: let's talk about just like, hey? What should you outsource? And and when do you? How do you come about that decision?

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Jon Carroll: There's, you know, there's a 3 elements right? There's cost.

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Jon Carroll: there's time, and there's quality.

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Jon Carroll: right? So generally, you say, we can have 2 out of the 3 can't have all 3

00:27:50.525 --> 00:27:51.240

Jon Carroll: and.

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Jon Carroll: And more often than

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Mark Wickersham: -Oh.

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Mark Wickersham: we're doing so good, too.

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Jon Carroll: In house to do this right in our small business, which, by the way.

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Jon Carroll: is what most single family offices you could characterize them as small business.

00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.269

Jon Carroll: and I think that is a fair characterization of Liz's

00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:21.649

Jon Carroll: clients, too small businesses.

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Jon Carroll: And so.

00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:29.470

Jon Carroll: you know you can. You can go out in the marketplace and buy this

00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:31.490

Jon Carroll: for a certain price, or you can

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Jon Carroll: build it yourself in house by hiring people and and getting the tools to deliver it, whatever it is.

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Jon Carroll: And Liz mentioned that you know bill

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Jon Carroll: bookkeeping or accounting, or financial reporting or

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Jon Carroll: risk management. You know

00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:46.920

Jon Carroll: the.

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Jon Carroll: the activities, the business activities that can be outsourced or

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Jon Carroll: really limitless.

00:28:54.010 --> 00:29:00.209

Jon Carroll: And so so the so the so the so the most decision making comes down to dollars and cents.

00:29:00.810 --> 00:29:03.029

Jon Carroll: and how you know, what's the what's the

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Jon Carroll: the lowest cost solution to get me the highest quality

00:29:08.540 --> 00:29:14.400

Jon Carroll: fastest. I mean that. I mean, that's basically the way people go at that at that decision making.

00:29:14.550 --> 00:29:15.270

Jon Carroll: And

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Jon Carroll: you know.

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Jon Carroll: if you've got a core capability, that's your small office.

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Jon Carroll: your principal.

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Jon Carroll: was it?

00:29:24.600 --> 00:29:32.709

Jon Carroll: You know, very successful hedge fund, Guy, and wants to do all his own investing right. And you know you've got your financial

00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.710

Jon Carroll: house in order. But

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Jon Carroll: you know, you need some sort of admin right, some fund admin right to actually handle all the transactions and managing all that. Well, look that makes sense to outsource that as opposed to building that sort of capability in-house.

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Jon Carroll: And I think that people in business people who have been successful entrepreneurs who have built businesses and been through it. They know that they

00:29:58.780 --> 00:30:07.440

Jon Carroll: they shouldn't try to do everything themselves. They should actually focus on where they add value. It's and and then outsource or

00:30:07.770 --> 00:30:12.709

Jon Carroll: sent to some somebody else, those parts of the business activity that

00:30:13.040 --> 00:30:15.589

Jon Carroll: that are not in their core

00:30:16.341 --> 00:30:24.489

Jon Carroll: capability, and maybe not even interesting to them, but need to be done. So I think it's, you know, it's a. It's a kind of decision that

00:30:25.630 --> 00:30:30.120

Jon Carroll: sometimes it's forced on family offices because

00:30:30.290 --> 00:30:47.470

Jon Carroll: they've grown organically. And you know we got Jon over there doing things. His mandate has expanded over the years, and he's been with us 17 years now, and you know it was great back in the day, but you know he's sort of we've sort of outgrowing that. So what should we do right.

00:30:47.570 --> 00:30:54.240

Jon Carroll: and that that's tough. Those are tough decisions because you're talking about people inside an organization that

00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:59.210

Jon Carroll: maybe have to be retrained to do something else or maybe

00:30:59.580 --> 00:31:00.500

Jon Carroll: let go.

00:31:00.710 --> 00:31:02.489

Jon Carroll: and that's you know, that's hard.

00:31:02.600 --> 00:31:06.190

Jon Carroll: and at least in my experience it's

00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.684

Jon Carroll: been unusual and difficult.

00:31:09.550 --> 00:31:13.509

Jon Carroll: a difficult decision to make when it was made, but usually not made

00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:14.860

Jon Carroll: to

00:31:14.930 --> 00:31:16.039

Jon Carroll: let staff go.

00:31:16.190 --> 00:31:21.950

Jon Carroll: Usually family offices find a way to, you know, repurpose.

00:31:21.950 --> 00:31:23.150

Mark Wickersham: Redeploy those accents.

00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:24.520

Jon Carroll: Their team members. Yeah.

00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:34.110

Jon Carroll: which is cool. I think it's very cool, and there's a lot, you know, in the family office industry, at least in the community that I've worked in over the years. There's a lot of loyalty between

00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:37.470

Jon Carroll: principals and the staff.

00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:43.000

Jon Carroll: and it goes both ways, and that's sort of the

00:31:43.340 --> 00:31:45.660

Jon Carroll: because it's a very service oriented

00:31:46.100 --> 00:31:48.610

Jon Carroll: business. That's

00:31:48.760 --> 00:31:53.519

Jon Carroll: that's the reason I think, that I've enjoyed working in that in that business all these years.

00:31:53.520 --> 00:32:00.079

Mark Wickersham: Yeah, I mean, trust and loyalty is that there? There's a premium for that, especially between the family and the family office, and that

00:32:00.710 --> 00:32:02.520

Mark Wickersham: any odds at that step

00:32:02.530 --> 00:32:03.970

Mark Wickersham: brings. I think

00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:21.289

Mark Wickersham: you know, even a large family office to your point is is a small organization, and you can't do everything and it. And sometimes it takes. It is hard because people are impacted. But to take a look at to you, to your point is like, what are you? What are your centers of excellence? What are you? What are you good at?

00:32:21.290 --> 00:32:38.030

Mark Wickersham: And then those areas where maybe you're not as good at that? They consider outsourcing in those areas. And then to your point, like redeploying those, hey? Maybe you're not really great at back office, you know, operations. Maybe you need to reconcile more than once a month like you maybe should take a look at.

00:32:38.030 --> 00:32:51.810

Mark Wickersham: you know, because so many vendors today actually provide their services on a on a, on a continuum of outsourcing from completely outsourced to just components of it. And you can right size that based on that. I also think the other thing, too, is like

00:32:51.870 --> 00:33:20.840

Mark Wickersham: taking a look at you know what is maybe kind of repetitive low value tasks that can maybe be offshore or outsource on a more cost, effective basis. So then, those resources can be redeployed towards more family facing higher value type of activities, right? Instead of banging in data. Maybe you can spend more time looking at that data and saying, Why do? Why do we have so much cash versus just trying to find out what the cash balance is. Right? So you see the

00:33:21.010 --> 00:33:35.909

Mark Wickersham: quite a bit. And like, it's hard because they need to make a decision that can impact people. And certainly I think you know, most cases, they can be redeployed. But there, there is certainly, you know, it is people process and technology, right? And they all.

00:33:35.910 --> 00:33:39.879

Jon Carroll: And we and we know that. And we know, Mark, that people. Generally speaking.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.410

Jon Carroll: a personnel will account for somewhere between 60 and 80%.

00:33:44.410 --> 00:33:45.880

Mark Wickersham: Yeah, right? The biggest.

00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:53.160

Jon Carroll: Of opex right in a family office. So a huge part of the of the of the Burden financial burden.

00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:54.239

Jon Carroll: or the people

00:33:55.450 --> 00:33:56.170

Jon Carroll: have a good one.

00:33:56.170 --> 00:33:56.940

Mark Wickersham: Feel, like.

00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:57.999

Jon Carroll: Do it without him.

00:33:58.230 --> 00:34:01.875

Mark Wickersham: Yeah, no how. How can family offices look to

00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:10.764

Mark Wickersham: in terms of benchmarking, Jon? What should they be thinking about in terms of how that family office should benchmark against other

00:34:11.100 --> 00:34:12.870

Mark Wickersham: you know, gets it pierced.

00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:18.089

Jon Carroll: Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And there are lots of ways to look at that.

00:34:19.269 --> 00:34:21.189

Jon Carroll: I think that one

00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:30.719

Jon Carroll: benchmark or set of benchmarks that's really interesting to family offices, especially executives and principals, is compensation.

00:34:31.339 --> 00:34:34.579

Jon Carroll: And there's a lot of work that's been done. I mean.

00:34:34.889 --> 00:34:37.402

Jon Carroll: on this topic.

00:34:38.289 --> 00:34:44.383

Jon Carroll: over the years surveys and and I think that you know, Trish Botoff

00:34:44.879 --> 00:34:46.089

Jon Carroll: probably the top

00:34:46.309 --> 00:34:51.069

Jon Carroll: thinker and doer in in this area around compensation.

00:34:51.189 --> 00:34:56.259

Jon Carroll: benchmarking. And so that's 1 area where there's a really.

00:34:56.459 --> 00:34:59.159

Jon Carroll: we're developing a really good data set.

00:34:59.479 --> 00:35:02.869

Jon Carroll: And people understand that different parts of the country

00:35:02.959 --> 00:35:10.619

Jon Carroll: have different standards of living, and so you don't have to pay the same for a CFO in Lincoln, Nebraska, that you do in in Manhattan.

81

00:35:11.549 --> 00:35:23.319

Jon Carroll: And so the nuances are starting to come in. So really, as. And as I mentioned earlier, you know, the compensation is generally somewhere between 60 and 80% of total OPEX in a in a single family office.

00:35:24.200 --> 00:35:30.620

Jon Carroll: And so compensation matters, and having and fairly paying your people.

00:35:32.450 --> 00:35:35.020

Jon Carroll: is frankly the best way to keep them around.

00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:35.760

Mark Wickersham: Right.

00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:47.079

Jon Carroll: If you under, if you underpay them, you know, and the market goes. You know, buyers, market seller's market, I mean, it's you know. It depends on where you, where you are in the cycle. But believe me, good people.

00:35:48.172 --> 00:35:51.789

Jon Carroll: quality quality people will always find.

00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:52.730

Jon Carroll: Yeah.

00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:59.120

Mark Wickersham: Attracting and retaining staff consistently. Ranks is, if it's not the number one issue, it's it's number 2, right for these.

00:35:59.120 --> 00:36:03.010

Jon Carroll: Yeah, in terms of managing risk. I mean, talk about

00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:07.239

Jon Carroll: the risk to a small office to lose your Cfo

00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:08.510

Jon Carroll: right, or to lose.

00:36:09.365 --> 00:36:10.219

Mark Wickersham: Right.

00:36:10.220 --> 00:36:20.880

Jon Carroll: Right, because all of that knowledge, all that history just goes out the door with them. And, generally speaking, you know, things are not as well documented as as we might hope. Right?

00:36:21.921 --> 00:36:26.639

Jon Carroll: So so compensation is one area mark, another area

00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:28.539

Jon Carroll: is, of course, your field.

00:36:28.790 --> 00:36:30.290

Jon Carroll: which is technology

00:36:30.570 --> 00:36:36.270

Jon Carroll: and looking at technology from the different perspectives of, you know, an integration.

00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:38.790

Jon Carroll: you know, an integrated sort of one stop

00:36:39.120 --> 00:36:41.680

Jon Carroll: shop kind of an approach versus

00:36:41.780 --> 00:36:43.819

Jon Carroll: what you might call

00:36:44.420 --> 00:36:47.030

Jon Carroll: a co-ledger or a best in breed

00:36:47.910 --> 00:36:53.759

Jon Carroll: approach right, which is, you know, finding the best tools and then making sure that they connect. And

00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:02.569

Jon Carroll: it's not that one is good and what the other is bad. They're both excellent solutions, depending upon requirements, right and

00:37:03.290 --> 00:37:07.549

Jon Carroll: and what the objectives are

00:37:07.963 --> 00:37:10.509

Jon Carroll: longer. Term, not just the immediate requirements

00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:15.949

Jon Carroll: to replace some system, but what the objectives are from a business standpoint longer term.

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:17.910

Jon Carroll: So

00:37:18.470 --> 00:37:24.888

Jon Carroll: you know, benchmarking and and understanding the the Kpis

00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:36.200

Jon Carroll: around technology and its use in the family office of Key, I had an opportunity to write up the results of a survey that the forge community did.

00:37:36.290 --> 00:37:36.880

Jon Carroll: Yeah,

00:37:38.020 --> 00:37:40.219

Jon Carroll: I think it was like a hundred 86

00:37:41.050 --> 00:37:45.629

Jon Carroll: members for community members who participated in the survey, and wrote up and

00:37:46.220 --> 00:37:50.680

Jon Carroll: produce a report that really got into the into the depths. And so, if

00:37:50.780 --> 00:37:56.689

Jon Carroll: any of your listeners or watchers that are not members of forge community. And they're a single family office definitely.

00:37:57.765 --> 00:38:00.620

Jon Carroll: Check them out and get that. Get that report.

00:38:02.620 --> 00:38:09.290

Jon Carroll: you know, in addition to technology and thinking about the types of systems that you're that you're using

00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:13.863

Jon Carroll: operations and risk management is another great area for for

00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:21.309

Jon Carroll: benchmarking. And KPIs. So, for instance, Fund count has done a study on

00:38:21.540 --> 00:38:23.679

Jon Carroll: risk management. KPIs

00:38:23.730 --> 00:38:31.709

Jon Carroll: asset vantage. Another sort of full service provider like Funk, just issued a handbook that is filled with

00:38:31.870 --> 00:38:37.209

Jon Carroll: what I would call best practices. So there, there's a lot of there's a lot of information out there

00:38:37.680 --> 00:38:41.460

Jon Carroll: around in the in the community that's available to people.

00:38:42.460 --> 00:38:46.770

Jon Carroll: And that's sort of driving me. And the family office project is to

00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:52.519

Jon Carroll: is to read stuff that other people don't necessarily have time to read. I'm not saying I'm not going to be a you know, too long. Didn't

00:38:52.660 --> 00:39:03.779

Jon Carroll: read type thing, but I want to. I do want to make sure that people are aware of the resources and the information that is available in the marketplace.

00:39:04.094 --> 00:39:18.565

Mark Wickersham: Think, Forge is a great one, right, that you have a peer community, that that peer community is doing some surveying and benchmarking, that that's a great way in a in a kind of safe environment to be able to get- get some good information. So.

00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:19.679

Jon Carroll: And that's a good.

00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:20.060

Mark Wickersham: Very important.

00:39:20.060 --> 00:39:22.360

Jon Carroll: And you know, I mean at FOX.

00:39:22.450 --> 00:39:26.219

Jon Carroll: you know, Kent Lawson over there is doing an awesome job, you know.

00:39:26.717 --> 00:39:30.089

Jon Carroll: gathering up data for for family offices. I mean the

00:39:30.490 --> 00:39:44.469

Jon Carroll: there's a long. There's a list of groups, people that are doing this kind of Tanya Neal doing a awesome job. Just did. Just did a really great report for

00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:50.270

Jon Carroll: The group called my FO.

00:39:51.020 --> 00:39:55.919

Mark Wickersham: They just rebranded my MyFOTech, which is now MyFOHub, or.

00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:57.299

Jon Carroll: Yeah, MyFOHub, yeah.

00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:58.230

Mark Wickersham: Yeah, they're great.

00:39:58.230 --> 00:40:15.279

Jon Carroll: Adriana and and Alex. So yeah, so so there's there is so much available. But it's hard to get your arms around the body of knowledge. And look, I'm a guy that kind of understands where to go to look for things and what things mean. And I'm

00:40:15.550 --> 00:40:24.490

Jon Carroll: struggling with you know, how do we? How do we make sense of this and make it available? So that's what that's sort of what the family office project is one of the things we're going to do.

00:40:25.470 --> 00:40:38.790

Mark Wickersham: Liz, what do you look at when you especially have a new engagement in terms of got a getting some benchmarking, maybe getting some key KPIs, to figure out the health of the family office. What do you? What do you look at when you, when you 1st kind of shoot yourself in.

00:47:36.220 --> 00:47:40.130

Mark Wickersham: So let's just shift gears a little bit. Obviously, there's

00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:44.079

Mark Wickersham: the change in technology is happening really fast.

00:47:44.779 --> 00:47:50.889

Mark Wickersham: And how is the current technology revolution, impacting or not impacting

00:47:51.110 --> 00:47:53.240

Mark Wickersham: the family office space.

00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:56.941

Jon Carroll: Well, I'll start.

00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:00.469

Jon Carroll: I think that

00:48:01.116 --> 00:48:06.119

Jon Carroll: there's a lot of buzz flying around about artificial intelligence. AI and.

00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:11.840

Jon Carroll: With good reason. It is happening. And it's happening in ways that

00:48:13.700 --> 00:48:16.680

Jon Carroll: are surprising, I think, to a lot of us.

00:48:18.790 --> 00:48:20.540

Jon Carroll: and will be

00:48:20.640 --> 00:48:23.990

Jon Carroll: a part of the technology stack

00:48:24.520 --> 00:48:27.540

Jon Carroll: in from now on. Right? So there, there's.

00:48:29.930 --> 00:48:31.579

Jon Carroll: Right? It's gonna be.

00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:39.129

Jon Carroll: It's going to be part of the way we interact with one another used through technology. There's no just no question of that.

00:48:40.350 --> 00:48:48.559

Jon Carroll: And an example of that is that back in the day we used to talk about. Let's get the reports, you know. Let's get the reports.

00:48:48.600 --> 00:48:58.459

Jon Carroll: And we got the reports from, you know, from the computer center, like back when you had a computer center, you had to go down and get them or out of your system. Right? Let's print them out on the printer.

00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:04.629

Jon Carroll: and we sort of went from. Get the reports to, hey? Let's produce a dashboard.

00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:10.580

Jon Carroll: and we've got everything laid out, you know, when you get your cup of coffee in the morning. What do you?

00:49:10.660 --> 00:49:22.930

Jon Carroll: What do you want to look at right and kind of go through the dashboard as a way to support the executive or the or the user through their day. Right

00:49:23.070 --> 00:49:24.040

Jon Carroll: now

00:49:24.290 --> 00:49:30.240

Jon Carroll: we've gone beyond both of those. They're still important. And there's still elements of the communication, the technology.

00:49:30.420 --> 00:49:31.910

Jon Carroll: But now we're into

00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:33.850

Jon Carroll: prompt.

00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:36.769

Jon Carroll: So what is the what's the right prompt

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:43.179

Jon Carroll: to get what I want, and if it's getting me what I want, then I'm going to save it. I'm going to run it every day or whatever. Right? So

00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:46.759

Jon Carroll: so there, there is a transition that's going on

00:49:47.160 --> 00:49:55.200

Jon Carroll: that is going to change the way that executives interact and yeah, all users really interact with

00:49:56.860 --> 00:49:59.389

Jon Carroll: their technology and

00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:06.980

Jon Carroll: what it is, mark, it's almost like, in addition to people process and technology, we need to add a 4th

00:50:07.070 --> 00:50:10.229

Jon Carroll: leg on the stool. And maybe that is called data.

00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:12.659

Jon Carroll: And the data

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:17.610

Jon Carroll: and data management now are going to be more and more important

00:50:18.370 --> 00:50:24.340

Jon Carroll: than ever before used to be. Hey, where's my data? I want to control my data, you know, if we quit this

00:50:24.450 --> 00:50:31.960

Jon Carroll: using you as a provider, we quit this system? Can I get my data, you know, and escrow it? And all this other stuff? I remember all the

00:50:34.450 --> 00:50:35.620

Jon Carroll: you know.

00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:41.149

Jon Carroll: challenges there were to solving that problem, making sure that everybody felt comfortable about their data. Well.

527

00:50:42.990 --> 00:50:47.649

Jon Carroll: yeah. Now, the data set has expanded beyond just

00:50:47.780 --> 00:50:49.420

Jon Carroll: the numbers in the ledger.

00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:55.999

Jon Carroll: The data set has expanded to include all of those documents that have

00:50:56.430 --> 00:51:02.939

Jon Carroll: either support or cause those entries into these ledgers, whether they're investment ledgers or financial ledgers, or

00:51:03.210 --> 00:51:08.049

Jon Carroll: or other types of, you know, miscellaneous ledgers.

00:51:08.180 --> 00:51:14.190

Jon Carroll: and all of that then becomes part of the data set that is available for

00:51:14.260 --> 00:51:15.479

Jon Carroll: these prompts

00:51:15.790 --> 00:51:18.700

Jon Carroll: that then can extract

00:51:19.060 --> 00:51:24.069

Jon Carroll: or get answers to, you know, to the questions they're asking, and that is.

00:51:24.080 --> 00:51:26.450

Jon Carroll: that's a transformation that's huge.

00:51:26.590 --> 00:51:32.399

Jon Carroll: And I don't think that people really understand that yet, because it's not here yet.

00:51:32.850 --> 00:51:35.140

Jon Carroll: but eventually it will be

00:51:35.700 --> 00:51:37.279

Jon Carroll: here, and people.

00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:44.960

Mark Wickersham: Well, you know what they say, Jon, that that the future is unevenly distribute the futures here is just unevenly distributed, right.

00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:45.320

Jon Carroll: Yeah, yeah.

00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:51.299

Mark Wickersham: Where their technologies here, I mean, you do a Google search. And now you see what AI is.

00:51:51.930 --> 00:51:58.990

Mark Wickersham: To, you know, results first, st before anything else which I find is interesting. I do think, too.

00:51:59.150 --> 00:52:23.630

Mark Wickersham: that AI is probably one of the biggest things is unlocking, you know, unstructured data. Right? So data is the new oil right? But so much data has been locked up in these documents, and really not accessible out of a way that you can kind of harvest it at scale, and AI is really great at it. But I also think the concern is that family offices need to have

00:52:23.630 --> 00:52:51.239

Mark Wickersham: probably some sort of AI policy that talk because you have open AI, you have closed AI, I mean OpenAI just came out with a new version that that can be closed on an enterprise level. So there it is, a new frontier, but it is an exciting time that how much I think it's like 70 or 80% of the world's information is unstructured. Right? It's in documents and family offices are no, no different capital calls. I mean the whole alternative. Investment industries, you know.

00:52:51.240 --> 00:52:55.019

Jon Carroll: Well, although I mean, most people use email.

00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:58.590

Mark Wickersham: Yeah, that's a lot of that. Right? Right?

00:52:58.590 --> 00:53:03.720

Jon Carroll: As a like. Let me go find that mail from so and so from, you know, 2021 about the Black

00:53:04.160 --> 00:53:13.350

Jon Carroll: Swan deal right. And oh, there it is, right. So all of that is good. And so that's the power of it. And, Mark, you're right. It's unevenly distributed.

00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:18.479

Jon Carroll: and there's going to need to be controls around it. But and also.

00:53:18.970 --> 00:53:21.269

Jon Carroll: you know, AI is not flawless.

00:53:21.610 --> 00:53:22.040

Mark Wickersham: Right.

00:53:22.040 --> 00:53:26.580

Jon Carroll: I mean it. It hallucinates from time to time.

00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:40.159

Jon Carroll: and we'll probably continue to hallucinate until some time from today. Right? So you somebody's got to make sure that what they're reading they can't just accept it and go with it. They've got to make sure that

00:53:40.170 --> 00:53:43.959

Jon Carroll: go back and check the sources on that, the citations on that.

00:53:44.130 --> 00:53:49.510

Jon Carroll: So you know, there's gonna be huge benefits to AI.

00:53:50.010 --> 00:53:56.209

Jon Carroll: But there, there's also going to be additional costs related to it, because people are going to need to be careful

00:53:56.380 --> 00:54:00.190

Jon Carroll: that they really understand what the results are that are being delivered to them.

00:54:05.250 --> 00:54:06.400

Mark Wickersham: What do you see, Liz?

00:57:45.660 --> 00:57:58.049

Mark Wickersham: How it can be worse engineered. Certainly an exciting time, but certainly in a time where people need to be, I think a heavy degree of skepticism is well in order. I wanna.

00:57:58.050 --> 00:58:04.650

Jon Carroll: And you know. And also, Mark, let me just say, in addition to that, in addition to skepticism, it's also having a point of view

00:58:05.080 --> 00:58:07.650

Jon Carroll: on what your policy is.

00:58:07.650 --> 00:58:10.490

Mark Wickersham: Having a policy. Yeah, it's 2, right? And.

00:58:10.490 --> 00:58:13.470

Jon Carroll: And that's that should be at the family council level, or at the

00:58:13.660 --> 00:58:17.000

Jon Carroll: board of directors level, or at least at the CEO level.

00:58:17.476 --> 00:58:24.260

Jon Carroll: to ensure that you have thought it all the way through, and you got it under control.

00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:26.650

Jon Carroll: because it can

00:58:26.850 --> 00:58:28.869

Jon Carroll: ratchet out of control pretty quickly.

00:58:29.150 --> 00:58:37.869

Mark Wickersham: That's for sure. So, Jon, you were part of one of the 1st multifamily offices in the country with GenSpring right? And obviously.

00:58:37.890 --> 00:58:54.509

Mark Wickersham: I think the multifamily office model. Even the single family office, like. What I'm seeing from reports is that, expecting that that this rapid growth, with single family offices, expecting, doubling and tripling. Of that. It does seem like the family office model, whether it be the private family office or the commercial.

00:58:54.510 --> 00:58:55.030

Jon Carroll: Family, office.

00:58:55.030 --> 00:58:58.679

Mark Wickersham: Sounds like a winning model. But if you know where

00:58:59.190 --> 00:59:14.739

Mark Wickersham: you know, take give me a little bit of perspective about, you know, because you've seen this long arc, maybe a little bit longer than some other folks, because you've been at it from the Genesis. There, where do you see the industry heading, and what lessons should be learning from the past.

00:59:15.710 --> 00:59:22.810

Jon Carroll: Well, yeah, I have been involved in the in the family office industry since 1994

00:59:24.100 --> 00:59:32.220

Jon Carroll: and I was lucky enough to be hired as a Cfo. At asset management advisors. That was the name of the firm in those days. In in Jupiter, Florida

00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:39.099

Jon Carroll: the Perry's happened. Ellen Perry were the owners of it, and I became a small owner over time.

00:59:40.110 --> 00:59:49.679

Jon Carroll: and Jay Hughes was on the board of directors. So almost 30 years ago this month I had my 1st encounter with Jay Hughes at A

00:59:49.810 --> 00:59:52.081

Jon Carroll: in A in a director's meeting.

00:59:52.820 --> 00:59:53.625

Jon Carroll: and

00:59:56.510 --> 00:59:57.503

Jon Carroll: you know,

00:59:58.810 --> 01:00:01.890

Jon Carroll: in 2,003 ama.

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:09.600

Jon Carroll: Was on the list of the top 10 multifamily offices the Bloomberg list.

01:00:10.810 --> 01:00:13.490

Jon Carroll: and of course they're gone. Ama is gone now

01:00:13.810 --> 01:00:15.529

Jon Carroll: it became GenSpring.

01:00:16.030 --> 01:00:17.359

Jon Carroll: And now it's

01:00:17.640 --> 01:00:24.650

Jon Carroll: the banks that you know. Suntrust Bank owned it, and then became truest bank. Now I think suntrust combined with another bank.

01:00:25.820 --> 01:00:26.930

Jon Carroll: and

01:00:26.990 --> 01:00:30.850

Jon Carroll: when I look back I just happen to have that Bloomberg

01:00:30.940 --> 01:00:33.860

Jon Carroll: MFO Study from 2003.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:35.549

Jon Carroll: I looked at it. And there's

01:00:35.620 --> 01:00:36.730

Jon Carroll: Rockefeller

01:00:37.050 --> 01:00:38.620

Jon Carroll: right is on there.

01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:39.840

Jon Carroll: Bessemer

01:00:40.250 --> 01:00:43.720

Jon Carroll: is on there. Oxford financial

01:00:43.910 --> 01:00:45.110

Jon Carroll: is on there.

01:00:48.700 --> 01:00:51.520

Jon Carroll: Those are the only 3 out of the top 10 that are still

01:00:51.980 --> 01:00:56.529

Jon Carroll: have their own name. So to answer your question. I think in the long run

01:00:57.130 --> 01:01:03.519

Jon Carroll: firms get created and they get rolled up. They get, they get merged into larger firms, and

01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:05.959

Jon Carroll: I think in in

01:01:08.070 --> 01:01:11.269

Jon Carroll: just looking at Bessemer 40, they had 40

01:01:11.340 --> 01:01:14.109

Jon Carroll: 40 billion, I guess, under management

01:01:14.330 --> 01:01:16.390

Jon Carroll: in 2003. Today, it's

01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:18.420

Jon Carroll: 200 billion.

01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:31.150

Jon Carroll: So the bigger going to keep getting bigger, I think doesn't mean there's not room for new, for new enterprise absolutely is. And in fact, I think what I've seen

01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:34.950

Jon Carroll: over the course of the last 30 years is

01:01:35.790 --> 01:01:37.560

Jon Carroll: the family office model

01:01:37.570 --> 01:01:40.440

Jon Carroll: becoming more of a retail offering?

01:01:41.610 --> 01:01:46.540

Jon Carroll: Then, you know, you don't need to be a billionaire that to get the.

01:01:46.540 --> 01:01:47.320

Mark Wickersham: And we'll bring those.

01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:47.810

Jon Carroll: Ray.

638

01:01:47.810 --> 01:01:48.500

Mark Wickersham: Down.

01:01:48.500 --> 01:01:52.410

Jon Carroll: Array of services. Now, you're not going to get the same sort of

01:01:52.900 --> 01:02:03.020

Jon Carroll: customization, or, you know, in the case of a family single family. Also, you're really getting custom. You're getting personalized service right to whatever you want as an individual. But

01:02:03.120 --> 01:02:08.059

Jon Carroll: you know, that is, that's the way the industry is moving, and they have.

642

01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:14.629

Jon Carroll: you know, all of the big firms. All the big banks have adopted this model and are pursuing because.

01:02:15.610 --> 01:02:17.249

Jon Carroll: you know, rich folks

01:02:18.250 --> 01:02:20.920

Jon Carroll: have businesses, and they

01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:39.200

Jon Carroll: they can influence other, you know, other people to to use the services that you're offering. So there's a lot of reasons why. You know, the financial institutions want to attract this segment? Very, very. And I you know I can't remember exactly the number mark. But

01:02:39.410 --> 01:02:41.700

Jon Carroll: I read the other day that that

01:02:41.740 --> 01:02:45.689

Jon Carroll: that assets under management in the family office industry now exceed.

01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:50.070

Jon Carroll: They're in the trillions. I don't know 6 or 7 trillion, or something exceed

01:02:50.550 --> 01:02:52.100

Jon Carroll: of the hedge fund. Industry.

01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:54.729

Mark Wickersham: Oh, really, that's great. Stat.

01:02:54.730 --> 01:02:59.110

Jon Carroll: Yeah, so, so I think you know over the long haul

01:03:00.095 --> 01:03:01.020

Jon Carroll: consolidation.

01:03:01.130 --> 01:03:01.930

Jon Carroll: Right?

01:03:02.556 --> 01:03:04.339

Jon Carroll: You know, rolling up

01:03:04.992 --> 01:03:08.430

Jon Carroll: and smaller firms into larger firms.

01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:11.140

Jon Carroll: and also sort of the retail.

01:03:11.140 --> 01:03:13.119

Mark Wickersham: Or a democratization of.

01:03:13.330 --> 01:03:22.520

Jon Carroll: Yeah, commoditization of, you know, investment management these days. It's almost a commodity, right? And the and the way you differentiate your offering is through

01:03:23.070 --> 01:03:25.590

Jon Carroll: these specialized services? Yeah.

01:03:25.910 --> 01:03:26.380

Mark Wickersham: Family, OP.

01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:29.329

Jon Carroll: Financial planning, right? Yeah, family office services.

01:03:29.380 --> 01:03:39.220

Jon Carroll: And you know, you know, everybody doesn't need to walk the dog, you know, a lot of people say, Well, we don't walk the dog, but but they do a whole array of financial and investment, and.

01:03:39.220 --> 01:03:43.900

Mark Wickersham: They do hire the dog Walker and do a background check on the dog Walker. But and.

01:03:43.900 --> 01:03:53.679

Jon Carroll: They'll make sure that the that all the services are being provided to the, to all the homes around the world, and so forth. So so it it is. I think a growth

01:03:53.910 --> 01:03:58.189

Jon Carroll: segment, and will continue to be a growth segment for them throughout

01:03:58.200 --> 01:04:01.979

Jon Carroll: rest of my lifetime, and probably the rest of yours, Mark. And Liz's, too.

01:04:02.130 --> 01:04:03.010

Jon Carroll: Yeah.

01:04:03.010 --> 01:04:05.321

Mark Wickersham: It's the winning model it's great to see.

01:04:05.710 --> 01:04:19.279

Mark Wickersham: This conversation has been great. I just want to wrap it up on a little bit of a more of a personal note. 

01:04:19.850 --> 01:04:22.198

Mark Wickersham: Portugal versus the U.S. Tell me

01:04:22.950 --> 01:04:29.400

Mark Wickersham: you know. What's it like to live in Portugal? What do you miss about the Us? Tell me. Tell me a little bit about that kind of compare the 2.

01:04:29.940 --> 01:04:32.790

Jon Carroll: Sure. So Portugal. Small country.

01:04:32.990 --> 01:04:34.320

Jon Carroll: 10 million people.

01:04:34.650 --> 01:04:35.620

Jon Carroll: That's it.

01:04:36.010 --> 01:04:40.480

Jon Carroll: Very homogeneous. Largest immigrant group in Portugal are

01:04:40.620 --> 01:04:41.769

Jon Carroll: the Brazilians

01:04:42.730 --> 01:04:44.110

Jon Carroll: makes sense right?

01:04:44.110 --> 01:04:44.510

Mark Wickersham: One week.

01:04:44.510 --> 01:04:46.060

Jon Carroll: Part of the Portuguese Empire.

01:04:46.908 --> 01:04:51.650

Jon Carroll: And Americans make up a very don't even make the top 10 in terms of immigrants.

01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:53.010

Jon Carroll: Okay.

01:04:54.178 --> 01:04:57.940

Jon Carroll: but a very active expat community here in Lisbon.

01:04:58.240 --> 01:05:00.010

Jon Carroll: The country itself.

01:05:00.190 --> 01:05:03.720

Jon Carroll: half of its national border is on the ocean.

01:05:05.270 --> 01:05:07.840

Jon Carroll: Okay? So half of it is coastline.

01:05:08.070 --> 01:05:10.229

Jon Carroll: The other half of it borders Spain.

01:05:10.310 --> 01:05:12.600

Jon Carroll: which is not a bad border to have.

01:05:14.170 --> 01:05:14.944

Jon Carroll: And

01:05:15.790 --> 01:05:18.550

Jon Carroll: you know the cuisine is

01:05:19.690 --> 01:05:25.110

Jon Carroll: appeals to a lot of people. It's very. It's. It's a very healthy cuisine. There's a lot of fish

01:05:25.170 --> 01:05:26.839

Jon Carroll: because of, you know, maritime.

01:05:27.830 --> 01:05:36.409

Jon Carroll: And there's a lot of what I would call like fresh fruits, vegetables, that sort. So it's healthy living. How about that?

01:05:36.810 --> 01:05:43.049

Jon Carroll: The temperature north to south, colder in the north, you know, get a little

01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:48.339

Jon Carroll: up in the mountains, you get some flurries and stuff as you head south. You hit the you know you hit the Algarves.

01:05:49.170 --> 01:05:51.540

Jon Carroll: and that is warm weather.

01:05:51.871 --> 01:05:53.740

Jon Carroll: You know, almost year round. So

01:05:53.790 --> 01:05:55.150

Jon Carroll: it's a

01:05:55.410 --> 01:05:57.000

Jon Carroll: it's a great country.

01:05:57.342 --> 01:05:58.630

Jon Carroll: We live in Lisbon.

01:05:59.660 --> 01:06:01.110

Jon Carroll: We live in an in a

01:06:01.130 --> 01:06:04.310

Jon Carroll: urban environment, and that's

01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:05.640

Jon Carroll: but it might.

01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:09.840

Jon Carroll: from my point of view, the best place to retire is to an urban environment.

01:06:09.980 --> 01:06:11.489

Mark Wickersham: Do a lot of walking right.

01:06:12.060 --> 01:06:17.150

Jon Carroll: Well, yeah. And you got great public transit. Great public transportation, a lot like

01:06:17.720 --> 01:06:19.290

Jon Carroll: like Manhattan.

01:06:19.370 --> 01:06:21.669

Jon Carroll: No, you got your neighborhood. You got your box.

01:06:21.720 --> 01:06:27.580

Jon Carroll: and everything's inside this box. You can do everything you need to do within 2 blocks this way and 4 blocks that way.

01:06:29.060 --> 01:06:31.989

Jon Carroll: compared to the us. It is cheaper

01:06:32.450 --> 01:06:33.599

Jon Carroll: to live here.

01:06:34.439 --> 01:06:35.850

Jon Carroll: You know. Not

01:06:36.050 --> 01:06:38.420

Jon Carroll: crazy cheaper, but it's cheaper

01:06:38.590 --> 01:06:41.110

Jon Carroll: compared to the EU. It's cheaper.

01:06:41.380 --> 01:06:44.000

Jon Carroll: so like when we go to Spain we go. Whoa!

01:06:44.130 --> 01:06:48.739

Jon Carroll: The prices went. You know these meals cost more here than they did back home.

01:06:50.240 --> 01:06:51.110

Jon Carroll: But

01:06:51.500 --> 01:06:55.809

Jon Carroll: the one of the things that's the Portuguese people are lovely people.

01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.640

Jon Carroll: very open, very warm, very.

01:06:59.340 --> 01:07:00.680

Jon Carroll: They're not

01:07:00.700 --> 01:07:02.070

Jon Carroll: an angry

01:07:02.580 --> 01:07:03.840

Jon Carroll: threatening.

01:07:03.950 --> 01:07:09.400

Jon Carroll: They're very, very mellow, very chill, and it's just a great environment

01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:13.201

Jon Carroll: to be here, and the Government now is, is offering

01:07:14.090 --> 01:07:15.900

Jon Carroll: subsidies to attract

01:07:16.910 --> 01:07:18.680

Jon Carroll: Portuguese young people back.

01:07:19.100 --> 01:07:20.120

Mark Wickersham: Oh, okay, so.

01:07:20.120 --> 01:07:22.750

Jon Carroll: Yeah. Giving them subsidies for housing.

01:07:23.340 --> 01:07:24.880

Mark Wickersham: Reimmigrate back. Yeah.

01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:28.269

Jon Carroll: Yep, to inspire them to, to come back, because

01:07:28.610 --> 01:07:38.209

Jon Carroll: you know the standard living is a little bit lower here, and therefore you know, if you get an education, you're an engineer or something immediately. Go to the Netherlands and make more money right than you could here.

01:07:39.326 --> 01:07:42.890

Jon Carroll: It's a great place to live as a retiree.

01:07:43.350 --> 01:07:53.370

Mark Wickersham: I love it. I love well, I love Europe, and, you know, spend some time in Italy, and the food's great. You always feel better. One thing I kinda would miss would drive me crazy would be, you know, lack of a dunkin donuts, and not being able get coffee with half and half.

01:11:21.790 --> 01:11:33.780

Mark Wickersham: There you go. Well, this has been a great conversation, it really. It's been fun to be able to connect again with you. And you know, I think there's been a lot of great insights here. I really appreciate you sharing.

68

01:11:35.580 --> 01:11:36.120

Jon Carroll: Thanks Mark.