Making Marketing Personal at Scale
Guest: April Rudin - The Rudin Group

Mark Wickersham (01:10):
Alright, April, I'm happy to have you on the podcast. Been looking forward to this one for a while. It's an honor and a pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just do me a favor and would you mind introducing yourself and telling people a little bit about the Rudin Group?

April Rudin (01:27):
Sure. Thanks Mark. I appreciate you inviting me and always a pleasure to see you. And so my name is April Rudin. I'm the founder and CEO of the Rudin Group. We are a global full service marketing firm that specializes in ultra high net worth and family office. We do everything from content creation to earned media, social media messaging, brand work, and everything really in between for all types of firms, firms that are financial services institutions and then fintechs and WealthTech that want to sell into those. So we're sort of both sides of the equation.

Mark Wickersham (02:13):
Whenever I get a chance to talk to a founder, I always love to talk to a founder about their founder's journey. Why did you start the business? But also I think you have a little bit of an interesting story here and that you started your business in 2008 in the financial service sector. It really wasn't a super friendly business environment. If people don't remember the great recession for some of the younger folks that may be listening, but can you just explain to me what was your thought about why'd you start the business? What was the gap that you saw? And obviously you had some conviction going into that kind of business environment.

April Rudin (02:49):
I did, so thanks for the question mark. So I was working for a family that was credited with inventing multifamily office and I have two Gen Z kids of my own and I took a look at the brands that were serving the market and to me they just looked super old, like a chess piece, a yacht, a lighthouse, and I knew that younger people were not going to be buying from brands that looked so old fashioned. And I thought that that was a real market opportunity. I read about the wealth transfer and this is almost 16 years ago. I read about the wealth transfer. I had experience with my own kids and with other clients and saw an opportunity to help as an outside firm, inside marketing folks really try to move the needle by modernizing or as I called it in the beginning, millennial their brand because they were only focused in on people that looked like themselves and that was going to be aging out soon. So I had this idea, I'll call myself a reluctant entrepreneur. I never had the idea of really trying to think of a business and then going for it. But when I had the idea, I went to a friend of mine who ran a trust company at the time and I told him my idea for a business and he told me 16 years ago, you're too old to be an entrepreneur. Banks will never hire outside firms. High net worth people will never be on the internet and social media is a fad. So, yeah that was perfect.

Mark Wickersham (04:33):
How'd that work out?

April Rudin (04:34):
Yes, well, he's gone. I'm here.

Mark Wickersham (04:39):
And he probably liked the lighthouse too, right?

April Rudin (04:41):
Yes, he did. The lighthouse. A lot of those brands, as you well know, are stick with these old fashioned sort of concepts and messaging and marketing materials and the golf club and rather than digital marketing and so on. So in 2008 turned out to be a really good time because when everything was sort of headed downward, people knew that things really had to change. So it ended up being, in fact, in my tenure press release, I called it a bad time for financial services, but a good time for me.

Mark Wickersham (05:18):
I guess that makes sense. They needed it more than ever, right? Because of the difficult business environment. There are a lot of brands that sometimes you look at 'em from the outside and they kind of smell like Corinthian leather. It's that kind of oak paneling lighthouse type of look and feel to 'em. So before we get into our theme, we want to talk about technology and the customer experience today we want to maybe take a few minutes. It'd be kind of fun to talk about 2025 trends. So what's in for 2025 and what's out?

April Rudin (05:53):
I think what's in for 2025? I'll start with the words, but I really am tired, a little tired of the word. So I think personalization is in mass, appeal is out. So what does that mean? It means that now you can use technology to really personalize an experience, but personalizing experience doesn't mean an email campaign that says, dear Mark, that's not really personalized. So I think it's digging into what the personalized experiences that your clients are looking for and not assuming that and breaking down clients. I always tell them like you might consider a family to be a client, but you actually are serving each member of that family and each member of their family might want to be served differently. I think technology is in technology finally is in meaning you cannot avoid it anymore. And so for those people who really haven't pulled the plug so to speak, technology is, and I'm here to say technology is a revenue generator, it's not an expense item.

(07:08):
So people should be thinking more about front office rather than back office. How can they use technology on the back office side is fine operationally, but that's internal facing. So I think people should again be thinking about how can they use technology in the front office to really serve clients better and differently. I think alternative investments are in this year, crypto is obviously in this year. I think I mentioned to you I'm writing a book and one of the interesting things that I found in researching and doing interviews for the book is that family offices end up being one of the greatest sectors and holders of crypto and why? Because they're trying to get younger generations involved and they can afford patient capital and the illiquidity that comes with that. So I would say those are four trends to keep an eye on.

Mark Wickersham (08:10):
Cryptos in al are in, I think there's been a lot of progress obviously in the back office with technology, a hundred percent agree with you. That's been going on for 20 years in terms of getting the investment accounting, streamlining their investment operations. But I certainly think it's an interesting trying to talk about how do you provide that personalization, that personalization at scale that requires client facing technology front of the office technology to be able to do that. So I think those are all good. Just kind of pulling on that thread a little bit more about wealth management firms looking at technology as an expense cost of doing business. Some studies are out there that in terms of firms are thinking about how much they should allocate towards that in terms of a percentage of their budget. And I think some firms think like, oh, we've modernized our back office, we're done so we can reduce our tech spend, but what should firms be thinking about it in terms of technology as a strategic asset and making that investment going forward?

April Rudin (09:11):
So I think the key is exactly what you said as the word asset. Many times even in a marketing conversation, we'll talk to our clients about what should the allocation be, what does it look like? What's your asset allocation to technology or to marketing and putting money toward both of those items are going to be what really fuels your growth and thinking about marketing and expenses more broadly. So lunches, golf club, all of those things should be counted into your marketing budget and all of those things may or may not be generating at scale the number of clients and the amount of clients. So that's where I think technology and marketing fit sort of hand in glove together. So I think people should be, I always encourage people to spend as much as you can till it hurts.

Mark Wickersham (10:12):
And then some.

April Rudin (10:14):
And then some, because that's the only item that you're going to spend money on that's really going to generate revenue, is going to be technology and marketing. Your office looks like some of the other things that might be important. Back office, as you said, other things that are individually important sometimes to owners or to partners might be not revenue generating. So it's important to think about how you're spending your money, but is it really going toward revenue generating activities?

Mark Wickersham (10:49):
Yeah, I mean for so long, especially on the advisory side and the multifamily office side, it seemed like it was like the passive referral was the marketing plan. It was almost like marketing was beneath them a little bit in terms of really focusing on that. And it seems like now firms really need to think if they want to fuel organic growth that they need to invest in marketing, invest in a MarTech stack that supports that online behavior. But how should firms be thinking about how much spend should they be allocating towards marketing.

April Rudin (11:27):
As much as they can? I mean, I don't think it's a hard and fast number, but you also bring up a really good point, mark. I don't think firms also understand the difference between sales and marketing, marketing and sales during the Olympics. The last Olympics, I videoed curling because I usually use that as an analogy that it's marketing's job to sort of clear the ice so that the puck can go through and that that's the difference between sales and marketing. Marketing should be communicating your value prop in a clear and concise way. What problems are you solving for? Should be generating brand visibility, should be doing other activities that sort of smooth the way for sales or generating inbound leads. So I think that is one measure that people can use. Are you getting enough inbound leads and are those inbound leads leads that you can close? Because obviously that's the way you want things to go. Someone that's calling you or inquiring as an inbound lead has a need and something that you generated caused them to act on it. So shame on you if you can't close them as opposed to the other way, which is just cold calling or mass emailing or just contacting people for whom you think your solution might work. It doesn't mean they're in the market for it. So because it's opportunistic, I really am a big proponent of outbound marketing to generate inbound leads.

Mark Wickersham (13:12):
There you go. And also those quality leads, those leads match your ideal client profile or is your messaging right that's generating the right type of leads for the firm that you're looking for? I mean so much of them

April Rudin (13:26):
And avoiding jargon. That's the one thing I would say a lot of. I mean I don't know about you, I tend to read people's websites and I don't understand what they do or what problem they're solving for.

Mark Wickersham (13:38):
It takes a while sometimes to figure out what they do or certainly I think what you see is a lot of the difficulty in differentiating we stand with the client, we have a fiduciary responsibility. I mean all those things are great and they're true, but do you specialize in helping doctors or is there a specific niche that you have? I think so much also of the buyer's journey happens before they make contact with the firm and that their first interaction or their first development of an impression is not based on their, when they finally get you on the phone or on the meeting, they've developed that and they finally have reached out to you because maybe they have some sort of event that's gone on, they've done some more research they've had, maybe it was a referral, but still the referral leads to looking you up on LinkedIn and looking you up on the web.

April Rudin (14:31):
Yeah, I think that's the part that people don't really understand though. They will say things like, my website's not important. I get referrals. And in fact, I just said to someone yesterday, what about the people who look at your website and don't inquire, right? There's something about your website that looks old fashioned, looks old, doesn't look tended to, isn't a motive, right? Doesn't look modern, doesn't give a good brand look and feel. So those are the leads that you're missing out on. So even though you might think you're doing okay, you can always do better. And like you just said, I mean your website is really the first piece of collateral and communications that a prospect is going to see.

Mark Wickersham (15:18):
So let's talk about personalization at scale. You have clients now and you've required them. How can technology enhance the overall customer experience?

April Rudin (15:31):
So one of the things I like to talk about that I think people really get is the client experience that luxury brands offer. Most financial services firms don't think about client experience in the same way. So I think client experience and personalization is more about demonstrating your knowledge and understanding of the unique needs of those clients. And it can be, as I mentioned before, segmenting it's not just you, but it's you and your spouse's needs or you and your children's needs. And each one of you might have different wants and needs, different styles of communication. So being able to really dig in and serve each family member and each person as a person with unique needs rather than the way your CRM might qualify someone, which is a household.

Mark Wickersham (16:29):
How can technologies distract from the customer experience?

April Rudin (16:33):
Again, people can just think of technology as back office and that way it's not doing anything to generate the personalization, but it's really about the data that you have and that you can collect that can help you generate that personalized experience. And then because everything is digital now, you can really ab test things, you can tweak it. It's not as difficult to make changes if you find something not working. So it's a real test and learn environment and I think people should be looking and thinking about technology and personalization like that.

Mark Wickersham (17:11):
I think you get a lot of data, which is great from the marketing tools and the ability, like you said, the AB test and the track website, traffic engagement and that data. You should be constantly looking at it, what does the data say? How can I improve? What can I do with my messaging? It's never, it's almost like technology itself you've never really done, you're always constantly trying to refine that messaging, that experience.

April Rudin (17:41):
And it could always be crisper. I always say it's like that old electric pencil sharpener. Just when you think you've got a good point, a very sharp point to write with, you can stick it back in again and keep going until it's super clear what problem you're solving for and what you offer. Because people are not going to take the time to read through somebody's website and figure out what they do. Or many firms will say, well, oh, it's on our website. But the question is where nobody's going to be searching for the answer on your website.

Mark Wickersham (18:16):
How long does somebody have on their website to figure out that question?

April Rudin (18:21):
I think it's something like 20 seconds on the homepage. And then the two most trafficked pages are really the homepage, which is your big ad. What are you going to say on that page that makes people interested and click through? That's the goal. And many people use it as if you're this client, click here. If you're that client, click there, which is just a complete waste of real estate. And then the second most trafficked page is about us and about us is another example of how marketing should be in communications. Highly personalized. Nobody wants to see an about us page where everyone's dressed the same way for some reason they put on the same outfit, they look like a choir or something with a dark jacket and a white shirt. It might list out their degrees or their college experience or something that really took place 20, 30, 40 years ago is irrelevant. It doesn't give you any insight into the person. So personalizing the about us page. So you learn something about the professional side, you learn something about the personal side is really, I would say that's another thing that's really in for 2025 too.

Mark Wickersham (19:44):
I would agree with that. At least even if everybody's dressed the same, at least they have a picture. People want to, even if it's still digital, they want to be able to look the in the eye as they're making that determination. That's why even video can be a valuable asset,

April Rudin (19:58):
Right? Video also really well the picture I was going to say has got to be less than two years old.

Mark Wickersham (20:04):
Yeah, don't be catfishing,

April Rudin (20:06):
Right? Yes. I don't care if you've gained 25 pounds, lost 25 pounds, you might not be happy with the way you look, but that's how you look. And in a trust business, you have to put a picture in of how you look. I mean it can be a slightly better you, right? I am not saying that

Mark Wickersham (20:26):
If your picture's pre covid, then maybe

April Rudin (20:28):
Yes, yes. Or really buttoned up. That's another question I get a lot. Your dress should be equal to the dress. However your clients are dressing, you don't want to appear too stiff in a suit and tie. For some organizations and some clients that's really a turnoff. They'd rather see someone dressed. And that doesn't mean unprofessionally, it just means maybe with a suit jacket or something not as buttoned up. For a woman it might be a dress and for a man, it might be a blazer and a dress shirt, but an open collar, something that looks more open rather than closed up.

Mark Wickersham (21:13):
Let's talk a little bit about ai. Obviously there's been a lot of hype around ai. How should firms be thinking about deploying AI and how should they not be thinking about deploying ai?

April Rudin (21:25):
So when you say firms, you mean wealth management firms should not be thinking about deploying AI and that could be controversial, but I'm going to say...

Mark Wickersham (21:34):
Love the take.

April Rudin (21:35):
...Because AI is really just the tiger in the tank or the engine behind how some technology solution is working. They should just be ignoring the fact of how it works and assuming that they are going to get something with the latest technology, whatever that might be. In other words, we don't think things are being run by an abacus anymore or a calculator or something like that. So I don't think they should be thinking about what technology. I don't think most people are trained enough to be able to evaluate it from a technology standpoint. But looking at it again from a fit standpoint and a gap standpoint, is it filling a gap for their clients and how can they use that technology to generate more revenue or create more stickiness for their clients is more important than what's under the hood?

Mark Wickersham (22:34):
I think that's a good point. I think there's so much focus on AI and it's not a means to itself. It's another tool. It's a powerful tool. I think a lot of times too, AI is just not quite right. So you get a first draft, that's okay, it doesn't speak in your don.

April Rudin (22:54):
Oh, you mean ChatGPT? Yeah,

Mark Wickersham (22:56):
Chat, GBT, the prompts. I think it's great for developing marketing materials or at least first drafts, right? But it's not your voice. It's a lot of times the answers aren't quite right.

April Rudin (23:10):
And regarding marketing material, it could never be in your tone and it can only know what it knows again. And that information that's been input into chat, GBT was maybe put in by one of your competitors. So you're just relying on somebody else's competitive information to generate your own marketing materials from. And that usually doesn't work. So I don't think we're sort of there yet.

Mark Wickersham (23:38):
It can summarize a lot of information, can really be a great tool in the back office in particular,

April Rudin (23:44):
Summarizing information, right? It's quite different because then you're using your own data and your own information. So I feel like that is a good use case, but having it write something from scratch to me, I'm just not sold on it again because it's being fed by someone else and who fed it, what, right.

Mark Wickersham (24:08):
Let's talk about talent acquisition. Obviously the next gen, there's two aspects of it that you have a younger generation that's entering the workforce. You have a younger generation that in terms of the wealth transfer, but how can technology be used to attract and retain talent?

April Rudin (24:24):
So I think regarding brand technology is really important because younger people in a couple of ways, younger people, if they've never heard of your firm, they don't want to work for your firm because they're very brand conscious. If they've heard of your firm and your firm has a good reputation, they've found you online, they've seen a good review on Glassdoor, they're going to do their due diligence and find out about your firm. And they're pretty good at using the internet to find out more information in terms of recruit. So having a brand that people can find and understand is really important. And then having a great tech stack within your firm is also really important in retaining younger talent. They don't want to sit down at a desk again that has a calculator and an abacus and go backwards. They're interested in using technology to solve routine, repetitive problems, having tools at the ready that they know about are on the market. And so having a great tech stack people find is important in both business getting and recruiting. It's really important to do that. And then again, it's the way you're portraying your brand on your website and in your marketing materials. I see all those people standing looking, the UN looking at an iPad and a stock photo. That's not what I'm talking about.

(26:07):
But having something that looks modern and looks 21st century, it's 20, 25 now people, right? It's not 1985. So making sure that your marketing materials and your tech stack are forward looking and thinking. So I usually tell people it's not like a one and done tech stack, nor marketing nor website. Two years max is going to be sort of the rule of thumb. But sometimes with technology changing so quickly, you're going to want to think ahead

Mark Wickersham (26:48):
To your point too that we talk about marketing, there's obviously marketing for new clients, but there's also marketing for talent, right? Yes. Try to give some bandwidth to your marketing efforts around. Try to portray what your culture's like, try to highlight your employees, trying to give people a sense of what that work environment is. So when you do have open job recs that you look like an attractive place to work.

April Rudin (27:15):
And the people have heard of you. For smaller firms, you're competing against larger firms with perhaps better benefit packages and things. So again, communicating what it is about your firm culture, to your point mark. And then also what are the benefits of working for that individual organization.
Mark Wickersham (27:41):
And I think to your point too, that that younger generation has a lot less talent, less tolerance for banging in numbers, manually updating spreadsheets. I think there's a lot of family offices, especially on the single family office side. There's an over reliance on human capital versus maybe taking a look at other technology type of capabilities. We'll put bodies on it. And that can be really limiting from in terms of employee growth and utilization. The higher value tasks can be done while lower value tasks can now be handled by technology in a much more

April Rudin (28:18):
Streamlined. Also, it's funny you mentioned single family office too. They often lack career path that other firms have. So making sure that you're able to communicate some sort of career path or involvement in the organization for younger people is also really important.

Mark Wickersham (28:36):
There's certainly the ability to do a lot of different things, but yeah, the defined career path that you may have in a large organization wouldn't exist. Let's talk about LinkedIn a little bit. You're one of the top influencers on LinkedIn. We both love LinkedIn. It's a fantastic tool. How should firms be thinking about LinkedIn and how should individuals be thinking about developing better profiles, developing their networks, using that platform?

April Rudin (29:06):
So believe it or not, I still have firms and people coming to me asking me if I think LinkedIn is an important part of their marketing strategy. It's 2025 people. I think that's been asked and answered. So

Mark Wickersham (29:23):
The answer's out on that one

April Rudin (29:25):
Yeah, no, we don't have to ask that question anymore, but to your point, I think there's a real focus. There used to be right back in the olden days, LinkedIn was for professional, Facebook was for personal. And today there's a real blurring, which I think is very positive of where a professional ends and where personal really begins. And I think the best profiles are those that mix personal with professional so that you get to know a person, it can be a conversation starter. I see the scheme poster behind you and I can ask you about skiing and I know that that's just a point of interest and it becomes a conversation starter. So in constructing a LinkedIn profile, I think you want to sprinkle in some personal tidbits or different things that can become conversation starters and everyone has a different tolerance and different feel for how they'd like that to be.

(30:27):
So I tell people I don't usually dictate, there's no right and wrong. It's whatever your comfort level is, but you need to look approachable and you need to say something about yourself. And then from a content standpoint, you need to be active. So people will tell me, oh, I'm on LinkedIn and I believe that they are on LinkedIn, meaning that they have a profile, but they're not actively using LinkedIn to post content or to link in with other people who might be good additions to their network. Or the other thing is that I really remind people LinkedIn is great, but the idea is to move conversations from online to offline.

(31:12):
So in the messages and in the way that you're communicating with people on LinkedIn, you're always going to want to be asking for a follow-up call, a meeting, something like that. So it's not just about being on LinkedIn or it's just not about accumulating connections. It's not the number of connections, even though there is a threshold for that. You want to have the right connections that are going to lead to business. So you want to be strategic about LinkedIn and then as an enterprise, I feel like LinkedIn is not nearly as important for enterprise brands. Now you're not going to get the engagement on your company LinkedIn page. People aren't going to follow that. It's just not that important. And there's not going to be content. It's usually a lot of self-serving content like an announcement or a press release or something like that that ends up only being liked and shared by your own employees, which to me is like the worst. I'd rather see nothing because having your own employees and share something does nothing to move your needle. So we are really 2025, what we've started a couple of years ago, but just really leaning into the importance of personal brands as opposed to the enterprise brand. And it's the unity of all of those personal brands that actually make up your personal brand, your firm's brands.

Mark Wickersham (32:41):
And the algorithm bears it out too. The post from the corporate page is going to be that same post from a personal perspective is going to be 10 x compared to what the corporate page is going to be. I will say though, I do think it is important that firms have a LinkedIn profile. You do see that still some regularity that the firm hasn't even set up a firm profile. So

(33:10):
There's a recruiting aspect of it that is a tool of it. I think there is, when you talk about people are going to look you up, even if you're referred, one of the places I'm going to go to is I'm going to look 'em up on LinkedIn, I want to see what their professional profile is, and then they have only 200 connections. And is there a picture from when they graduated high school or is it something more recent, right? You want to see that and that they at least have a bare minimum, some sort of professional profile. There's a professional firm profile that you understand what that firm does and you understand what the firm does quickly. So

April Rudin (33:46):
No, I completely agree. But I think in terms of importance, you want to put your efforts, maximizing your efforts. Usually people have the most followers and having people then send over to the brand page rather than the brand page. In the past, people started at the brand page and then have them go over to personal brands.

Mark Wickersham (34:08):
What about YouTube? How should firms be thinking about that channel?

April Rudin (34:14):
I think in family office, wealth management video as you mentioned before is really important because just like this podcast here, it's really important because it helps you get to know the person. I can't tell you how many times I meet people and then they'll say to me, you're just like, I thought you were going to be, and for better or worse, I am not going to say anything about that. But you want to be as authentic as you can be. And video is one way of doing that. I mean, yes, you can be scripted and yes, you want to be on point, but there's so much that you can gain by looking at a person, watching a person. And the nuance there, especially in a trust business which we work in. So I think the importance of video and YouTube really can't be underestimated.

Mark Wickersham (35:08):
I think video is really an important component, whether it's on YouTube or on your website. People want to look in the eye, they want to get a personal connection. That's a really good way to do it. Also, YouTube's the second largest search engine. So people are searching that. I think it's more of a, I find it an invaluable tool like how to tool. So if you are helping people answer questions and you're answering the same question from clients on a regular basis, maybe that's a good opportunity to kind of explain that via via YouTube because it is a widely popular platform with amazing stickiness and growth. I think sometimes it just gets overlooked.

April Rudin (35:49):
Totally. But I think just on that point also, mark, people have to have a plan. It can't be random. You can't just be posting, here's one video today and another one three months later and some other one two days later and then another. So there has to be rhyme or reason to it. So having a content calendar, having a professional approach to it is also really important. And so I find many people just saying, oh, we need video. Let's start it today without a plan. And they might have a YouTube channel with zero video, something that looks unattended.

Mark Wickersham (36:30):
Yeah, right. You can tell that that got a dead, dead brand look of a dead channel. Look, somebody did it once and that person's no longer there or whatever.

April Rudin (36:40):
Exactly.

Mark Wickersham (36:41):
So I just shift like to end these conversations on a little bit of a personal, obviously we've been talking about LinkedIn. How has LinkedIn impacted your personal life? Do you have a story that you want to share from there?

April Rudin (36:56):
I have thousands of store, millions maybe of stories on LinkedIn of interesting people I've met because I've given them a chance. They might have sent me a LinkedIn connection. And a lot of times people will say to me, I only link in with people I know, which defeats the whole purpose of that. How are you going to meet new people if you're not linking in with people? But I guess I like to share stories that are maybe personal stories that have some professional lessons in them. I think we were talking before about last summer, I ended up taking a trip to Scotland, which

(37:37):
I said was last on my bucket list of places to go to because I don't drink scotch, I don't play golf, I don't like plaid. I don't know about kilts and bagpipes like that. It had no appeal to me, but I challenged myself by going there and I found some really, I ended up loving it and can't wait for my next trip back. So I was surprised and wanted to share that people should really push themselves outside of their comfort zone. And there were a lot of great comments that people put on that post, both about different places to see in Scotland and then about different experiences that they had themselves where they pushed themselves out of their comfort zone a little bit. So I think that's one of the things that I really like about LinkedIn is the dialogue aspect, which people have to remember. It's not a monologue. You're not pushing out some content and then you never go back and answer anybody who's written to you. If they're taking the time to write something, then you need to take the time to answer back.

Mark Wickersham (38:43):
Good stuff. April. Well, I really appreciate you sharing your insights. This has been a great conversation. I know people are going to get a ton of value out it. So thank you for sharing.

April Rudin (38:53):
Thanks for inviting me, mark, and I hope to see you soon offline.

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