Mark Wickersham, Host 0:05

Hey, welcome to the Wealth Tech Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Wickersham. On this episode, I have Sue McDermott from Addepar. Sue is actually my first guest on the Wealth Tech Podcast. I bring her back after two years and we discuss what has changed in the Family Office technology landscape. Together we explore why Best of Breed mentality has evolved into more of a hub and smoke model, how data quality and integrity have greatly improved. The case against QuickBooks in the Family Office still holds up. We talk Addepar's AI strategy with Addison and the risk of AI sprawl. As always, we end the podcast on a personal note with three questions that have nothing to do with Wealth Tech. Let's get started. Alright, Sue McDermott. Welcome to the Wealth Tech Podcast. It is great to have you back on the pod. Just uh for the viewer's sake, just to let people know that that Sue was actually the first external person on the podcast, and uh she is episode one, so I'm happy to reconnect after a couple years. I thought Sue maybe we spent a little time or revisit our conversation from two years and see what's changed and what's stays.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 1:20

Has it been two years, Mark?

Mark Wickersham, Host 1:24

Two years and a couple gray hairs uh later. Um, right off the bat, I mean, I think one of the focus of our earlier conversation was around best of breed. I think, you know, this is this is kind of um settling out. I I think there's there's been a lot of movement in there, but you know, two years later, how do you think that thesis is held up? What do you think's changed? Talk to me a little bit about it.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 1:50

I mean, I think, you know, in concept, the it's it's it's still uh the way to go, right? It's still it's it's still the mentality. I think some of the language has changed as some of the tools evolve and change. So um while again, while the concept is still the preferred, I don't know that I hear the best of breed language as much.

Mark Wickersham, Host 2:21

Yeah, I think it may just the people just talk about their tech stack as a natural exactly, exactly. Um I do think, you know, my thinking has changed a little bit on this. I got obviously there's no one right answer for every family office. Um, and it's good that they have alternatives out there in the space. I do look at it as more of um, you know, it's not a thousand points of light, that it's more that you have primary platforms, and these platforms then have integration points around that. For example, you know, Addepar would be the the front office, a set of financial general ledger would be the back office, and then you have natural integration points off of that. For us, that would be bill payment, uh, for example, or credit card data coming in from banks and third-party data providers. You know, for you, you you have alternative investments, you have custodial data feeds. I I think that that's how I'm looking at it now, is that that there are there are platforms out there and that these platforms have kind of key natural integration points.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 3:28

That's exactly how we see it too. And I think as, you know, obviously we'll talk a little bit about AI later in our conversation, but right it's less about not less about the tools, but I think the starting foundation and the the data platform is really the the hub to all of that. And is, you know, certainly how as as Addepar evolves, um we are positioning ourselves as that primary data hub off of which many varieties of tools can operate.

Mark Wickersham, Host 4:09

Yeah, I think that that's a good way to put it. A data hub, uh a platform, you know, that that that you're uh a natural for that and kind of a center of gravity uh within the tech stack. The the the biggest issue, you know, in this platform approach or this best of breed for a long time has been the eyeboard to abor connection, the the getting the front of the house, the investment system to talk to um the financial accounting uh aspect of it, single-sided investment information converted into dual-sided general ledger information. Uh, why has this problem been so hard to solve in the past? And what progress has been made in this area?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 4:53

Both business reasons and technology reasons. Um, I mean, to begin with, the the consumers and the you know, analysts and decision makers on the investment team are looking at totally different things and analyzing and deciding different things than you know detailed record keeping for what's already happened for the purposes of you know reporting largely tax and regulation. Um, right. So the business purposes are are wildly different. Now those data sets certainly are at the core the same, and only you know, at tertiary levels necessarily do they start to really vary from each other. Um moving into the technology side of it, you know, historically technology wasn't as able, right? It wasn't in a position to do whether it was very fast, high levels of not calculation, but computation and processing and interpretation, right?

Mark Wickersham, Host 6:18

So transformation, yeah.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 6:19

Yeah, the technology has come a long way in sophistication and speed, and being able to translate the pieces of of those data sets where where they're different. Start from that core where they're the same, and we've gotten a lot more sophisticated and faster at creating the pieces that each of those decision-making bodies really need to have. So I know that was a long-winded answer, but there's there's a reason why, because it's complex. Right, right, right. And it all comes back again to this data hub that needs to needs to be right, Mark, right? Needs to be quality. I think the other thing that's evolved with technology is our ability to maintain data integrity, right? The tools make it easier for us to be better.

Mark Wickersham, Host 7:19

Yeah. Reconciliation is not quite the issue it used to be. They used to be able to do that.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 7:24

It's not the same conversation it used to be.

Mark Wickersham, Host 7:27

Yeah, yeah. Um, and you're right, about the the they're very divergent purposes. One ones try to minimize risk and maximize performance, where the other ones try to really sensitive the cost basis, um, you know, and also try to tax prep and have a unified view of the wealth. They want, you know, a holistic balance sheet is certainly one. There are multiple options now in in the marketplace, which I I think is great. Um, this, you know, is is a problem that that's solved. I mean, I think part of the problem too is um a little bit on family offices with QuickBooks. Like QuickBooks is you can't really build a a sustainable, scalable integration to something that that is doesn't have the structure to the chart of accounts that that you need. In some cases, a single entity, like, you know, that that's just it's retail software.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 8:20

The single entity and lack of consolidation challenges that a user faces with QuickBooks, the integration faces those same challenges, right? So it it makes it hard.

Mark Wickersham, Host 8:34

I'm just gonna say, just say no to QuickBooks. I'm gonna get a bumper sticker, it's gonna have the little splash through it.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 8:41

Like like the the the no nuke sign in the 80s, right?

Mark Wickersham, Host 8:44

Just say no. Um so what has actually improved uh in the marketplace? What are some since we've talked a couple years ago? Obviously, there's been so much growth in AI. We'll we'll get into that certainly in this conversation. But yeah, what is new? What is hype? What is having an impact?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 9:08

I mean, I'm gonna sound a little bit like a broken record. I think, you know, those of us who live the deck, the the data and the technology every single day, you know, um have known for a while that this this data hub platform play of really clean quality data at the center of everything. Um I'm excited to say that's the trend. Like everybody's getting it. The consumers are getting it, you know, the um providers are getting it. So I I think we're we're all starting to focus on on the right foundational things. So I think that's that's a happy trend. Um and you know, the other trends are things that that fall into place from from that hub and spoke uh setup that you and I were discussing just a few minutes ago. Um whether it's AI or the fact that AI is making code writing so much easier, there are a lot of new entrants of a lot of tools that clients can consider to integrate with whether it's you know, decision assistance for something very niche and specific. Um you know those kinds of trends make me a little leery, you know. I'd like to see where they're gonna be in a in a couple of years as these things.

Mark Wickersham, Host 10:51

Vive coding, is that really, you know, is that that really gonna give you accurate information given the complex business rules? I mean, I certainly look at it from a general ledger standpoint where you're kind of you know closing the books and there's all sorts of balance entries, and then you know, you can't just necessarily take everything and throw it into a data lake and then you know, um do some vibe coding off and expect, you know, complete results every now.

unknown 11:16

Right.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 11:17

You know, in that though, what has actually improved, there are some, you know, really quality new solutions of you know, integration, hubb and spoke still very, very important, very integral, very popular. But I think with you mentioned data lake, you know, some of the things that are on the horizon that we're really excited about, to me, they mean less data transport, right? The more off it's like that game of telephone. When you pick up data and you put it somewhere, it's either reinterpreted or it's dropped something. So I do think that some of the new technology, Adipart certainly is is part of that in our ADX offering. Is how do we create a space where, you know, the data and and the tools for this hub and spoke can sort of live in all the same place. So there's less picking up and putting down. I'm not saying there isn't translation, right? Like a sell trade still needs to be translated into journal entries for special tax treatment because my family's going through wealth transfer, right? Those things are always going to be needed, or at least for now. Um, but if we could pick it up and move it a little less, I think we could achieve faster, more insightful, more relatable uh information. So I I I'm excited about those trends.

Mark Wickersham, Host 12:57

I think that I think that's a good one. I you know, every time you used to have to uh you swivel chair that data, you had a reconciliation point you had to deal with too. So it became really arduous. Um now it it's it's a little bit easier to pull information together without having to um go through that. I I do think that probably the two biggest trends aside from AI in the world um would be the optionality that that that you mentioned that family offices really have more choice now. Uh almost in every single category. Um alternative investment data management. I look at that. That there used to be a pervasive problem that had no solutions. Now there's there's multiple quality solutions in the in the marketplace. And you're also seeing like some of these new entrants are are built on a more modern tech stack. And I'm not talking about like legacy providers that have been around 20 years. I'm talking about you know, somebody that was five years ago, but somebody that's two years. Like that tech stack is dramatically different. You can create different in an AI native platform, right? I also think that the ability for um firms to own their own data, like that's a real possibility now. Um, and and to do lots of different things of it. Uh one one is obviously you have that that vendor risk, which you or you can switch out the nodes on on your tech stack a lot easier. Uh, but also then you can start doing things with with your data, which you have it all in one place and put AI on top of it, BI on top of it.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 14:29

And you can evolve and change your mind and not have to redo it all.

Mark Wickersham, Host 14:34

Yeah. Or not have to do these massive inception to date, you know, data conversion. When you do these new systems, too. Those are you know, that land war and agia, with especially with the general ledger, it's like it's so expensive, it's so costly. Um, so there's really, you know, those I think are really some of the the big ones out there. Let's talk a little bit about this owning their owning your own data. Yeah. Um, family offices, um, you know, I think it should be a part of every firm's tech stack, whether you're advisor or or family office. How should family offices think about that and approach that?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 15:12

Well, I I would go back a little bit to some of the trends that I'm talking about, right? Like the they they have they have the ability now to um you know, have much more sophisticated tools at their fingertips than ever before. Um I do think they when they're looking at data platforms and tools and systems or whatever you want to call them, um that needs to be a topic of discussion as they're making selection, right? Do I own my data? What does portability mean? How easy is it for me to get at it?

Mark Wickersham, Host 15:57

Yeah.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 15:57

Um, you know, I know family offices have done a lot of great work and are focused on asking good questions about privacy, cybersecurity, you know, I'm not gonna go deep into those. Those are a given, table stakes, if you will. But I think, you know, digging into the conversation of the data itself, where does it live and how do I get at it? And and when you say I own it, in what format can I take it?

Mark Wickersham, Host 16:31

Yeah. Is that a usable format? How easy is it to get my hands on it? How often can I get my hands on it? Yeah, those are all good questions that you should be asking as part of the due diligence process. Um let's get into AI a little bit. Uh, obviously, that's one of the fastest moving, biggest trend. You know, uh it's uh literally eating the world in almost every industry. Um Adipar's come out with it with their AI offering called Addison. Yes. Uh how has Addison changed the Adipar platform and the and the overall experience?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 17:09

Um, and you know, to be clear, we're using AI in an in a number of of ways. And I can talk to you a little bit more about that, but Addison is our you know, user assistant. Um it's pretty amazing. I think as a user, one of the things that used to be a little challenging about Adipar is if I I questioned something or I wanted to learn how to do something, apply a filter, run a report, build a report. I wanted some, you know, some help, go to the help center. Finding that the right content, there was a lot of content in there. So finding it wasn't always easy. So the first thing Addison does is interact with users in natural language and help them gain the benefits of all the content in the help center. And it gives really clear, step-by-step how-to examples and also provides all the source articles and materials it used to arrive at that. Um so there's that. Um moving into more of the portfolios themselves. So conversational analysis, right? And I've got a meeting in 10 minutes. You know, what are the the biggest uh detractors and and contributors to the portfolio in the last quarter without having to run a report? Um right. So it can give me really quick talking points for meeting with clients without having to kind of go through a bunch of analysis views um and reports. Um it's you know, beginning to provide more generative insights automatically surface certain drivers, whether those were, you know, detractors or contributors or or other uh portfolio highlights. Um and you know, to step back a little bit, you know, one of the things that we see, we talked a little bit about all these tools that are out there, right? I mean, every AI tool is available. And we do think clients need to be cautious of that, right? One of the the dangers a little bit is sort of AI sprawl. Um and we are taking a very thoughtful, intentional, native, internal to Adapar approach. Um so there, these are not bolt-on tools, these are our own engineering building it into the platform. Um and as such, it reads all of the other infrastructural things already in Atapar, like permissions um and attributes and things like that.

Mark Wickersham, Host 20:07

I think that that's important to note. I I think it I think you do look at that AI has a chance to kind of repeat some of the mistakes in the past with all these like siloed, you know, point solutions, right? And then the other thing that that yeah, I think you bring up a good point is that you know when you're talking about enterprise institutional software controls, you know, user controls, permissioning is really important. Yeah. Um, that you want to make sure that whatever capabilities you have is is tied into that control mechanism. Uh, you don't want something subverting that.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 20:42

Um I think lastly, all of all of Addison's insights are explainable, traceable, and verifiable, right? So we know our clients are in a position, whether it's audits or answering to the board or right. So you need to be able to prove that that the AI was accurate and where did it get its information from?

Mark Wickersham, Host 21:06

So you're making you know, investment committee recommendations, right? Like you don't want to have a hallucination that, well, yeah, I just made it up. No, that needs to be uh sourced and attributable. Um the AI and the the data problem I I at family offices have. I think part of what you're seeing with AI is that AI needs like any system, but in particular, it's really sensitive to really needing good data to get good results. Yes. Um, and I I think you know, these family offices in the past are are still do. They they sit on a mountain of data. They may not even know all the data that they sit on or where that data is or whether it's usable or not. How does AI help solve that data problem and how does it help expose that problem?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 21:56

I mean, obviously every situation is a little different. But I think, you know, if we think about, I don't know about you, we're certainly encouraged at Adipar. And I'm I'm just personally curious, right? So I've how how can Atapar change my my daily life, my, my life at work? Um, obviously, you know, there's a line of, you know, it can it can perform, you know, repeatable, automated, easy stuff. But I think one of the great things that I have found is, you know, after five or six years at Adipar, I have a lot of documents, a lot of notes, a lot of emails, a lot of stuff. And I talk to a lot of people maybe one time or one or two times. Um, I have found it really helpful. And I and I'm my example is, and this is where I've seen my clients find it helpful with their data, is right, that data that we haven't looked at in years. It can help you glean insights from it, even if it's not in like a you know, beautifully readable format. Um, so in a way, in the beginning, I would suggest clients use it to help them get organized. Find your stuff, find your couch money. You know what I mean? Like, where's the stuff that you tucked away that you forgot about? Yeah, um, and start creating a thoughtful data schema, definitions. Begin to know, like I don't know is no longer an acceptable answer when you have these tools. So start looking through it, have it help you find, you know, all my interactions with this fund manager from someone we haven't invested with in 20 years, those kinds of things, and start creating an organized, monitorable data structure and environment.

Mark Wickersham, Host 24:01

Yeah, be able to look at all those deals you passed on and all that data that you ended up driving that, right?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 24:06

All those people you forgot about, maybe. And yeah. So it can be a source of new opportunities. You know, if you're if you're a multifamily office, it can be a source of maybe new clients or you know, families you talked to five years ago and you could follow up. So it can help you gain insight from from the communications and data you kind of forgot about.

Mark Wickersham, Host 24:32

Yeah, the tools are are available today. I mean, I I think it's important that um, you know, family offices when it has like an AI policy, but to go with that, they need to have um somebody responsible for data governance, right? Yes, they do.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 24:47

They need data governance before they employ or apply that AI.

Mark Wickersham, Host 24:53

We deem this as the good data. Um, and this is the data that that can be used. And that that it obviously needs to happen on a on a regular basis. Um and and what sources are allowed, what what the frequency is, what the validation process is. It's hand in glove. Like you really need to have a data data governance policy and mechanism that goes along with your AI capabilities, uh, or else you know you're gonna be spending as much time trying to question the results that you're gonna get from uh AI as is as the benefit is gonna not be as great as you you'd hope, right? Yeah. So um in your conversations with with family offices, where where are they at? What are you seeing uh in terms of how is it showing up in a practical way? Where where do you see family offices on the ground with with AI?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 25:52

Well, I think A A, they're all curious. Uh-huh. B, they're all a little scared. Right? I mean, there's certainly some outliers who are more technically savvy or you know, like to be on the cutting edge of those things. But in general, um they know that clean or they're beginning to understand that clean data is required. They're a little concerned and and they they don't exactly know what they've got. Um I think that they are all beginning to use it in ways they think are safe, right? Like I said, you know, going through communications internally or that I think they're playing with it, they're experimenting.

Mark Wickersham, Host 26:39

Yeah. It's uh I think that's probably a good start. Um, I I think that it's important to kind of uh walk, run, sprint uh type of thing before leaping fully into any capabilities on that. Um talk to me about AI. Uh do it yourself, like build versus buy. I you know, I thought that conversation was dead a long time ago. Um it's making a resurgence with uh AI and the capabilities that AI provides. Talk to me a little bit about uh you know, you know, I think DIY with AI.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 27:19

I'll go back to some of what, you know, what we already have talked about today, and you know, some of the the dangers uh or the risks that come with AI, right? Reliability of not even just your data, the reliability of the AI tool that you're using and in the answers it's providing and your ability to explain those answers. Um data privacy and security, of course. Like what tool is it? Where does it live? What is it sitting on? How does it get your data? How does it where does it store it? All that's yeah, where does it go? Like how long does it keep it? Right. And then, you know, the other thing is and and you know, this is one of my sort of all-time favorite adages, and I'll probably use it again today. But sprawl, like you know, you end up with one little AI thing, a bot to do this, and oh, oh, wait, now oh, that worked great. Let's do that. And now we have another one, and then we have another one, and now again, so like unless you have someone that it is their full responsibility to keep your data clean, and someone whose full responsibility it is to monitor your tech stack and these tools and these vendors, those two things are really big efforts that historically family office is you know, that's a bit of a yeah, for a lean family office, that's that's a lot of that's an expensive endeavor. Yeah.

Mark Wickersham, Host 28:59

Yeah, yeah. I I think some of the things that still apply from the, you know, when are we even pre-AI when people are gonna build uh their own software, like, well, it sounds great, and you know, maybe 1.0 is great, but guess what? You need to maintain it, right? Things change. Regulatory environment changes, your tech stack changes, your requirements continue to evolve. Like anybody that's in the software business knows that that it's a never-ending quest. Like you never finish evolving your product, you never say, done. You know, it's it's constant. You you always have a a product roadmap and a backlog of things that you're getting to that's as long as your arm, and it never ends. And and that's the problem, I think, you know, that that is always unnecessary.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 29:46

Like with tools today, you know, back when this conversation, you and I had it 20 years ago, the conversation was a little different. And and some of that is like today the tools that are available that are written by professional software development firms have the flexibility, personalization, customization that they didn't have back then. There's no reason why anyone should build their own, Mark.

unknown 30:19

Right.

Mark Wickersham, Host 30:21

It's just yeah, the QA quality, uh, congratulations.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 30:24

Not for the important stuff, right? Not to monitor your wealth and you know, record your tax attributes. No.

Mark Wickersham, Host 30:31

Financial planning, great, great. Um, so if you're revising a family office today, knowing everything that's changed over the past couple of years, what would you do different than you know our previous conversation if you look back then?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 30:49

I don't know if I would do a lot different. I think re-emphasize or put greater emphasis on certain things. And here's my adage again, right? Don't allow for urban sprawl. Create a thoughtful planned data schema and governance plan. Um and be really choosy about the tools, the spokes to that hub.

Mark Wickersham, Host 31:19

Yeah.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 31:21

Um a planned community and not urban sprawl. Like be really thoughtful about it.

Mark Wickersham, Host 31:28

I think that I think that's good advice. I I think um, you know, it's it's always been that adage, you know, garbage in, garbage out. So I I would think that, you know, they take a look back on it, maybe a greater emphasis on on data, making sure that you you know you own your data, you know where your data is, that your data is clean, your historic make that effort to get that that uh have a data governance in place. I mean, that's kind of I think a universal uh and that's gonna apply five years from now, too.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 31:57

Like you can't, you know, even you know, when you and I talked long ago, it mattered. I think what I feel differently about is those of us in a position to give ideas or provide guidance, or we really need to reinforce the importance of that clean and well-maintained data source. And like software, it's not a one and done. Right. Right. And that one you own. You don't have to build software, but you have to own your own data.

Mark Wickersham, Host 32:32

You have to own your own data, you have to make sure it's good data. Because now you can do so much more with that data than you previously could. The insights you can get, the support of the decision making that you can get, it's it's much different now than it than it used to be in terms of how hard you had to work to get kind of results from your data. So yeah. I like to end the podcast on a personal note with three questions that have nothing to do with wealth tech. Okay. If you had one superpower, what would it be?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 33:07

Uh but if I could like magically resolve small conflicts between people, and I don't think individuals. Okay, yeah. Just individuals, not like, you know, world peace. I think as my as my kids, you know what I mean? I mean, world peace would be nice, but if I just had like a magical thing where I could make a person see from the other person's perspective, yeah, um, you know, a lot of family and and colleague angst would magically evaporate. So that that would be it.

Mark Wickersham, Host 33:41

That's a good superpower. I've never really thought about that. I uh I just think it along the lines of more of the traditional superpowers. I one of the things I wouldn't necessarily want to have um like time travel because I think that could mess up a lot of stuff. That could get weird, yeah. I'd like to go from point A to point B like instantly, like like the flash. I love yep. Hey, I'd like to be in Europe, I'd like to be in Capri and not have to do like a 12-hour journey to get there.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 34:07

And as someone who gets really motion sick, that would be that would be ideal. I should have picked that one, Mark.

Mark Wickersham, Host 34:13

Yeah, that that'd be if somebody likes to travel, I'd be like, if I could just cut out the actual travel, that would be fantastic. Um if you weren't in wealth tech, what would you be doing now?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 34:26

Something artistic or crafty, like a painter or a novelist or a sculptor or something like that.

Mark Wickersham, Host 34:35

I like it. I like it. I used to uh for a brief time out of college, I cook for a living. Uh I'm glad I don't. It's a really hard job. I think anybody that's worked in food service knows the meaning of the city.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 34:48

Oh, I have done that, yeah.

Mark Wickersham, Host 34:50

Yeah, I I would probably be a raging alcoholic too, because it tends to be part of the industry.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 34:56

Well, that's the environment.

Mark Wickersham, Host 34:57

Yeah. Um, but I I did I do like that creative process of you know, making something and you know, just to try to get to that the the Anthony Bordenating concept of the perfect meal. Like I I like that whole idea, like, you know, could I run a like 10-table bistro or something like that? Sounds great. Great in theory, anyways. But maybe for lunch, right? Like I'm I'm happy to just be able to go, yeah. Um, so anyways, uh book, podcast, or series that you've uh read or or been watching that you'd recommend?

Sue McDermott, Addepar 35:33

Um all right, here's my a little bit of an at a par plug, but I have to say the the blog series on currently on AI is is really, really good. Um but more foundationally, this is a book that I recently gave my kids because I as young adults I just think it's important. Um it's called The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housell.

Mark Wickersham, Host 36:01

That is a good one. That's a good one to give your your your kids.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 36:04

Yeah, because it talks a lot about the difference between between being rich and being wealthy. Yeah.

Mark Wickersham, Host 36:10

Million Millionaire Next Door is uh I get another good one, right? Um I think uh I I recently read, I I love these um these adventure books, like you know, when they go to the South Pole or first person to climb ever. It's like they people back in the day did really inspirational stuff. Yeah. Uh with with god-awful equipment and just launched themselves. I I read um Down the Great Unknown. It was uh about uh John Wesley Powell and the first uh Transverse down the Colorado River. Uh just fantastic read. And I I just any of those, I just look back at the time period, like what they did and where they went, you know, Lewis and Clark. It's just crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. I love those stories.

Sue McDermott, Addepar 36:57

Actually, along those lines, uh, I read and it's a novel, so it's like it's a historical novel, so it's got a little drama story to it, but a lot of it's factual called Suspension about the building of the Brooklyn Bridge. Oh, yeah, that'd be interesting. Yeah, it's a good book. Pick it up. Yeah.

Mark Wickersham, Host 37:15

All right. I love those historical fiction, like it's based in, yeah, but they make the story come to life, which which is which is great. Um, all right, so I gotta go read the uh attapari AI blog, but it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast again. Thank you for having me. As always, thanks for being on. Talk soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Wealth Tech Podcast, brought to you by Seta AI. Seta is on a mission to modernize the family office. I really appreciate you listening, and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Talk to you soon.