Mark Wickersham, Host 0:05

Hi, and welcome back to the WealthTech Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Wickersham. Today's guests are the co-founders of Nines Living. Nines is a unique software platform that is purpose-built for ultra-high-net worth families and individuals that manage multiple homes, homestead staff, yachts, private aircraft, and everything in between. In this episode, we cover the wealth spiral of buying a dream home, often leads to an unexpected second job, Mo and Jaco's unique founder's journey, why this market is overlooked when almost every other industry has their own unique soft purpose-filled software platforms, and the unique challenges that estate managers face. As always, we end the podcast on a personal note with three questions that have nothing to do with Wealth Tech. Let's get started. Mo and Jacko, welcome to the Wealth Tech Podcast. I am happy to have you on the show. Today we're talking about really kind of an interesting product, I think you guys have. It's really kind of category defining, obviously, an important component within the family office services component. And I think a lot of firms struggle with the problem that you guys solve, but we'll be talking about uh property management, estate management, family office services, and trends within the industry. Would you guys mind kind of giving a brief introduction of yourself and Nine's living?

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 1:43

For sure. Yeah. Thank you, Mark. Very happy to be on the podcast. Uh listened to some great, great episodes already. Um, so my name is Jacko, uh Jacko De Braun, uh, originally from Amsterdam, uh, the Netherlands, and yeah, been in the States for about 16 years and always uh worked on software.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 2:02

Uh thanks again, Mark, for having us on. Um, it's been great meeting you and really exciting to be on your show. Uh I know we're gonna get into it a little more in a little more detail later, but my name is Mohamed Elzimore. I used to be a personal trainer prior to starting nines with Yaakko. I'm born and raised in New York City, I'm originally from Queens. Um, but it it it was a very interesting switch from the world that I used to be in where I was selling fitness versus selling software, but it was the same audience. I used to train those billionaires and royal families and Victoria Secret models and celebrities. So it's um it's a different product, but it's the same clientele at the end of the day. So excited to talk more.

Mark Wickersham, Host 2:45

So why don't we just jump right into that? Tell me about the the founder's journey. It's been almost six years for you guys since you you started a product. What was the original kind of impetus to say, hey, let's we there's a problem here that that we can solve that nobody else is solving? And um, you know, kind of looking back over the past six years, what have you learned?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 3:10

Certainly, I think we can take turns at that, Yako. Um, I would say the problem we're solving now, and we can dive into that because that problem is pretty much five or six different pain points that families.

Mark Wickersham, Host 3:23

Yeah, so who's those before we get into that? Who's nine's ideal client profile? What what go at your ICP and then you know what's the value prop there, your unique value proposition?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 3:34

Sure. So the problem we solve for now has it was not the the same problem we were solving for on day one. We've pivoted a couple of times when we realize where the real opportunity lies and where the real need is. Um, the families that we work with typically are wealthy families that have multiple homes and generally speaking have staff at their primary residence, at the very least. Uh, these people are essentially running businesses out of their homes. And they may not look at it that way, but when you have employees that are you know working in your living room and in your property, uh, you are managing people, and that is an entire other world. And sometimes it's it's not what the clients were signing up for when they went and bought that dream house and then realized they needed someone to manage that property. So the more complexity, the more moving pieces, uh, the more stuff they tend to own, the more properties they have, the more of a need for a centralized system. So those are the families that we are generally uh speaking with for the most part.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 4:34

Yeah, we call that uh we kind of coined the term the the wealth spiral. So really this idea of, especially with new wealth, which we've seen a lot of um, is like, hey, you you buy a new property and you think that's it, like uh that's the dream life I was looking for, but then you realize there there's a lot to take care of. So whether you then manage vendors or you hire a person, uh that's that's a whole new kind of job you have to do. And at some point it gets so complex that you then hire people to do that for you, which then that that alleviates you for a little bit, but then you have to manage that person. Um, so in the end, what what Nines provides is a software platform to help you manage these homes, the people, and the projects happening in these homes. Again, we'll get into kind of the story, but like from my background in software is that I've seen kind of software being developed for every possible industry. Like you have barbershops and uh pizzeria who who now have their own kind of custom tailored software. And as we kind of got into this space, like we realized like even the billionaires, they they have binders or spreadsheets, and uh it's a problem. So why not having software for themselves?

Mark Wickersham, Host 5:46

So that's uh that's really where institutional knowledge is spread all over the place, right? It's in a binder, it's in a like you said, a WhatsApp tech text string, yeah, you know, or it's in one person's head and that person leaves, and then you're you're kind of stuck, right?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 6:02

Totally, yeah. Usually a combination of all the above and more.

Mark Wickersham, Host 6:08

So tell me about the the founder's journey. Tell me about about what you originally set out to to solve, your your pivots, and and and kind of how you landed where you're at.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 6:20

I think unlike some other founder stories where there's a clear need, a clear problem, and then they set out to find that solution, we were trying to find the problem in the beginning. You know, what is the real problem we can solve for that others have not solved for? Um, I guess just keeping a long story short, prior to this, I mentioned I was a personal trainer. I was training really powerful individuals who have have a lot of uh generally speaking, a lot a lot of pull, right? Whether it's in entertainment or politics or you know, whatever it might be. But as a personal trainer, it's an interesting dynamic because you get to tell them what to do for an hour versus them telling your world, right? Yeah, it's it's a very interesting relationship. And then you know, the connection you have with those people it becomes quite special. So I had a connection like that with one of my clients, many of my clients, but one in particular, Mark Laurie, who was one of the greatest human beings I've ever met. Um, luckily for me, he hired me as a personal trainer to get him ready for the 40-yard dash at the NFL Combine, which is fun and different, and it's not what I would normally get asked to do as a personal trainer. And so we ended up training for the 40-yard dash because he had run it the year before for charity, the run rich, run, the rich rising thing he does every year, raise 100 grand for St. Jude, so all for a good cause. Said, I'm gonna come back next year faster, and we're gonna raise more money. So something exciting to plan for and work towards. After about a few months of training, we decided how can we make it bigger? How can we raise more money? So we decided to challenge Jerry Rice to a 40-yard dash off. The loser had to donate a quarter million dollars to St. Judes. So awesome so far. Feeling a lot of pressure as a personal trainer, of course. Can't lose that race. Um, Michael Rubin was poning up the money on behalf of Jerry Rice, so he's you know the owner of fanatics. Um, we ended up beating Jerry Rice, and so that was helpful, right? I think that that helped my relationship with Mark Glory as well. I'm very happy I didn't lose that race, so that could have been a very different story for us. Uh, but a couple weeks after that race, COVID hit, and that changed the world, right? Um and I was on a convers, I was essentially training Mark Glory via Zoom, or you know, uh on a Zoom call, and he ends up, you know, again, a long story short, for the sake of time here, he introduces me to Yacko and says, you know, there's a bigger problem to solve here. You guys figure out what that problem is and how to solve it, see if you guys get along, do a FaceTime, and then you know, make a decision. Do you want to move forward and start a new company together, or do you want to just keep doing what you guys are doing now? Um, so I'll let Yako.

Mark Wickersham, Host 9:07

So, Yako, you were looking at this problem as well.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 9:10

Um, so initially, what how we started was the idea of nines providing trusted um like uh service professionals to your home. Initially it was like, hey, are people immune for COVID? Like those are the best employees to have. I mean, that that didn't go anywhere. There was never a scientific proof for that. Uh, but later, of course, uh where they um where they did they have the the the the shots at least. Um so that that was the whole discussion, right, early on at COVID.

Mark Wickersham, Host 9:39

So more like a staffing type of organization.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 9:42

Yeah, so it was really staffing, and so we we were working 25 families, like 35 household staff, and they were on our payroll. So that was a special sauce we had where we would find people, we would train them. We had our own chief of staff who would manage them. Um, and then they would be on our payroll. So the families loved it because they didn't have to worry about anything. Um, this the staff loved it too because they could kind of use us as a buffer for any venting or questions or but the big thing we realized that staff always needs to know what to do. And a lot of times families they just think like, oh, let me hire a housekeeper or like a house manager. They've done it before, so just do it. But it always goes wrong because the whole premise of private service professionals is that they do what you want them to do. Um, so that that that lack of information and communication is is where things go wrong. Uh, we can talk about best practices in general as well. Um, so that that was going well, but then we quickly realized that this doesn't scale, there's always problems. We're not in the house, we don't know what's going on. Um, but again, the the bigger issue we identified is that there's a lack of information in these households. Uh, people don't know where to find it, like we couldn't figure it out, like the family uh couldn't tell us.

Mark Wickersham, Host 10:55

You were living it because you had that these people were your people, and that you have to solve that problem.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 11:00

So suddenly, suddenly we knew what the problem was. That's pretty much the the end of the story. Like we were living the problem, even though we were not millionaires ourselves, but we had kind of staff to manage as well.

Mark Wickersham, Host 11:10

What are some of the kind of common pain points and operational challenges that the clients are are are coming to you with? And then also, what are some kind of best practices that you you guys have have kind of seen work over time?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 11:26

I'd say the pain points, and I do most of the demos, so I hear them every day over and over again. So the five or six that I hear most often, the the one that's the most obvious, it's the lowest hanging fruit for us to solve for. And Yaak already spoke about it. The way I like to sum it up in one sentence, even billionaires are using binders to manage their homes. That was the aha moment. That was uh there's gotta be a better way. That doesn't make any sense.

Mark Wickersham, Host 11:50

Like almost like an Airbnb, right?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 11:52

They gotta they gotta binder just like these are the richest people on planet earth, and sometimes they're more disorganized than, you know, for lack of a better term, an average person. So the idea was well, let's get everything off of the binder spreadsheets, word documents, notes on your phone, text messages, WhatsApp, Dropbox, and I can just keep going on and on. And get as much of that information into one place that's easy to use, that's secure, that's literally built for the space. You're not taking something and trying to make it work for a space it's not meant for. This is industry specific. Um, so the most obvious pain point is they're disorganized. There's information everywhere. It makes a challenging job of managing these large, complex properties 10 times more challenging when you don't even know where to look for the information you need. That's a terrible foundation to have to have to work off of, especially if you're onboarding new people. They're winging it the first 10 months they're working there. You're never going to get the best version of that person. You might even burn them out. So that's another piece. How do you onboard people successfully? Um, so that's one big piece. Continuity or lack thereof is a massive pain point. I've gotten calls from principals literally crying because their house manager or their housekeeper quit and they don't even know when the garbage goes out. They've lost all of their institutional knowledge in that person's brain when it walked out the door. The the stress from losing a person, or for whatever reason, they quit, they retire, you fire them. That's that's not fun in any industry. It's especially painful in private service because companies are better prepared for turnover. Another big pain point is insurance. So a lot of clients don't know what they own, they don't know where it's currently located. Nines is considered a best practice in the ultra-hand worth insurance world because we take it a step further. You could see how you're maintaining your stuff as well. And insurance companies love that. But another thing is there's usually uh more miscommunication than there should be between the principals and their staff. And this could be really stressful for the for both, right? For both parties involved. Uh generally speaking, principals don't really want to talk to their staff more than they have to, and so a lot of times they don't want to have to follow up with you to see if you did the job that they asked you to do three days ago. Like close the loop, please. So those those are the ones that obviously some families are gonna feel pain point A more than B. Uh, but generally speaking, they're all pretty disorganized, and then that's gonna cause a lot of problems in and of itself.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 14:18

Yeah, and I mean there's a best practice. I think the the overarching uh idea is like being more proactive than reactive, right? That's the that's the big thing. And once you're reactive, you're you're too late. Um, there's a problem in the household, and the principals, the family, they're they're feeling it extra, right? It's in their house, they're they're living it day-to-day.

Mark Wickersham, Host 14:36

Um, very personal, right? This is uh very intimate type of situation.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 14:41

Yeah, and it's it's not just numbers on a on a spreadsheet or something. Like this is they're living so um so being proactive and to be proactive, a big thing is documenting everything, right? Um, and whether you do that in nines or somewhere else, but like have a centralized location to document everything, like when a vendor comes and they do something, like make a note of it and lock these kind of things, because there's a chance that other people will be involved soon, or there's turnover, or uh somebody else has to pick it up. So that's important. Um, making sure you have these kind of protocols and kind of checklists on things. Again, these people work there because they're trying to help the family live the life they want to live. So the family should communicate what uh they're looking for and they they they should write that down. Um, not just like a job description when somebody joins a family, but also specifically like, hey, in this room we want the temperature this way, or uh when we go to our second uh like vacation home, these are the things we want to make sure are double-checked and are ready for us to go because we're here, we were we paid $10 million for this house, but we're only there for every year. Uh, we want to make sure that's uh that we can enjoy that when we get there and not have to worry about all the different things.

Mark Wickersham, Host 15:56

Um, I used to work for a bill payment uh providing software. And the last thing that uh you want to do is get a call from the family that's in the veil home and the the kids can't watch Nickelodeon, right? That's that's not a call you want to have. You want to be much more proactive than that.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 16:12

It's always just light bulbs and the streaming, uh, see streaming subscription and maybe the gate code, things like that. Um that's yeah, that's that's important. Um so yeah, just uh and I think the other part that Mo was referring to is like when you have uh staff, right? Really having yeah, the task management piece. So uh really having accountability and transparency that everybody knows what's going on, um, and that you also can find out where things stand. So that's key.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 16:42

So without naming names, do you guys have any horror stories? I'll give an example of something that could have turned into a horror story, I guess, relatively speaking, right? It's not really horrible, but there's um there's a really big guy, right? He's the founder of a huge tech company. And sometimes principals don't even know that they have knives, they just know that their houses run the way they want them to run, and whatever it needs to be done, you know, do it to make sure that's that's the outcome. But this one principal had an elevator in their home, and they had a very famous person get stuck in said elevator, and it was two o'clock in the morning. The only person that knows how to magically get the elevator to work again is the estate manager, their home sleeping. So instead of calling this person and maybe them not picking up because their phone's on airplane mode, perhaps, they went to the elevator page in their nines account, and they're like, Oh, if you push this button and finagle this and slide this, it starts to work again. And something as simple as that, you're getting your guests out of the elevator. That could have been really bad, right? It could have been the firefighters doing it for you. So though, you know, that that that kept a knight from being ruined, and that's an example, like, wow, that's why I love nines, or that's why I it's good that I'm organized and I have information where it belongs, and it's not just floating in someone's head. So that could have been really bad. Another example is you know, where is the water main shut off? Do your people know that? Right? Do they know how to use it? Because seconds versus hours could cost you millions of dollars, right? If that's what needs to be done immediately. So, like those are obvious use cases for having you know, fire extinguishers. Where are they? Where's the closest one? How do I use it? Is there a video that shows me like that? Should be in a really obvious place that should take you seconds to find. And in most cases, that's not that's not the situation, right? You've got to put on your detective cap and start looking in eight different places and hope that you're on the right track. Versus in nines, it's really obvious where the information lives.

Mark Wickersham, Host 18:40

I had um family office security expert Tony Ghibli on on the podcast. He mentioned one of the the biggest security risks that families and family offices face is from the A V equipment within these secondary homes that they never get updated. So that's another area where if you had a you know it's the latest firmware updated, what what what is the latest maintenance on that could save folks a lot of trouble because that that tends to be a big vulnerability point for for these families?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 19:11

Good point. We love Tony by the way. We had him on the podcast too, so I'm glad that he's great, he's he's big into the tea.

Mark Wickersham, Host 19:18

Like I heard he's moving the moving to Europe. Um as a whole separate life in terms of of being uh a tea expert. Um let's talk about estate managers. I think there's a lot that family offices can learn from estate managers and the fact that uh these estate managers are trying to provide like a five-star luxury hotel type of experience for their clients, um, which is obviously in line with the white glove service that family offices want to provide their clients. And I think it's when you're talking about family office services, uh, these are the areas where we get into where these families really value these services. It's not the the numbers and the tax returns and the accounting is something that's very intimate and very uh direct within their their lives. Uh, but what can family offices learn from estate managers when it comes to managing these properties and managing these hard assets?

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 20:16

Yeah, I think it is sorry, Mo. I I would say like a big thing. So we we have, um, as Mo mentioned, we have our own podcast as well, and it's really for estate managers and about estate managers. So we we hear all their stories and their strengths, superpowers and best practices. Uh, and I I would say it goes back to this idea of like being proactive, right? Um they they they remember these little details that can come up later that are important, but also that can be uh like providing delight. It's like, hey, uh I noticed, like they really like this. Like, oh, I have to bring that back up. Uh but otherwise it's like the the the preventative nature of of doing things um because they they think ahead. Um they're they're very operational, but especially very proactive in that sense.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 21:00

Yeah, I think family offices need to really lean on their estate managers and work on building that relationship because the estate manager is the they're they're the ones that that they're like the heartbeat of the home, if that makes sense. Where if they're not they're the the maestro, if they're not managing the people and bringing that up in the proper manner to the principals and alleviating any stress that's being felt on either side, like they have to carry a lot. Um estate managers, house managers, PAs, chief of staff, director of residence, like whatever the title might be, the people who are really helping around the show, they are incredible people. The jobs that they have are very challenging. When you really start to see it, you have to know so much about so many different things. Um and you're working in someone's home. That's a different world entirely. I that's a different level of skill that's required to be able to navigate, you know, not feeling like you're intruding in someone's house and still managing it properly. Um Um, uh to your point, I would say uh obviously it's become more more obvious to multifamily offices and others in the space RIAs that this is a big piece that no one's really thought about in the past. I mean, thankfully we figured this out a few years ago. We get leads from psychiatrists because they hear about these problems from their clients and they're like, we don't want to deal with this. You know, you deal with their household drama, we deal with their childhood trauma, which is a really great line, I'll never forget. But it's it's right. It's not that their their investments are going up one or two percent. They don't really care at the end of the day, it doesn't change their lives, but if they don't feel comfortable inside of their own homes, it doesn't matter how much they're worth, right? That is priceless. That is something that more families than you think are experiencing to some degree.

Mark Wickersham, Host 22:46

No worries. I have yeah, sometimes I mean it's like more money, more problems, right? It can be that that type of uh a situation. Uh hiring best practices. I know you guys don't hire anymore, but you did, and obviously it's a key part of the ecosystem that you're part of. What are when families and family offices are are hiring household staff, what are some best practices?

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 23:10

Yeah, I think the the biggest thing when you think about the household is like, and I guess that's for any any hire you make in in companies too, really writing down the job description. Like, what do you expect? Um obviously it's it's both uh on both sides good to manage expectations, uh, but it's it's also understanding what's what's necessary. Uh most of the time, again, in households, it's just a little different. We see that people just say, like, oh, we need a housekeeper and looking for a housekeeper or house manager. And it's like they don't outline what that person actually has to do. Uh, and so it's within a few months, it's clear that there is miscommunication because of that, miss uh manager of expectations uh and responsibility. So I would say that's uh that's the first step to really outline what the most important uh responsibility are. Um but I think the other part, again, what different for household is that they're in your home. Um, so you really have to, I think, look at the the person's emotional intelligence, like that that aspect of somebody's uh skill set. Uh, but also how do you get along with them? They don't have to be your best friend, but there has to be some kind of like basis where you feel like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna be okay together uh in more intense situations.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 24:29

And uh I would say a couple of things. I would say be realistic. Sometimes families want to have a hybrid of like three different roles in one, and it's just not possible, right?

Mark Wickersham, Host 24:41

Or a housekeeper they expect them to be a chef and a state manager and fly planes.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 24:46

Actually, we do see a state slash chef, a state, you know, a state manager slash chef hybrids, but they can watch the kits while they're and everything cleaning up the playroom. So talented person, yeah, absolutely. Speak to someone, speak to an expert who can help say, all right, you know, because generally speaking, four and a half thousand feet, every four and a half thousand feet square feet, that's that's one housekeeper, right? There's there's guidelines that you can go off of that are best practices that I think would be helpful when building that job description. I would say when you're meeting or you know, when you're beginning to develop that relationship with the with the employee, you have to internally determine where you will draw the line and then stick to that line. Because sometimes you become buddy buddy, right? And you let that person in, and then you're like, oh, that was too much, and then you push them out, and now you're creating miscommunication, and it's weird, but you're sending mixed signals. The employee doesn't know where the line is unless you set the line. And they might lose their job for stepping over the line at some point down the down the road or down the line. Uh, but that's because you you didn't make it very clear from day one. I think sometimes principals also like they make it very clear they don't want to see you in their house. Like you do everything else when I'm not around. I walk into the room, go somewhere somewhere else. You know, maybe that works, but it's clear at least. They know what's expected of them. There's no miscommunication there. So I think not sending mixed signals from how you want to be approached or not approached could be um something to that could be really helpful if you were to avoid.

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 26:20

And I think the last one that's kind of nines like that that's our premise that we're built on is like supporting these people uh with tools, with like personal development. Because that's that that that that's not happening in this space. Uh, again, that's a different type of job, but it should be because these people um a lot of times they they're hired for trust and not expertise, right? Like it's somebody's family member or friend, or uh they were a great nanny, now they have to manage all of our properties. Um, you you should be able to give them some like training and and other things so they can help you because otherwise, yeah, it's not good for either either one in the end.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 26:57

So that's a really important point, Liakal brought up. Uh they'll also hire for a skill set and then promote for trust. So yeah, you were you sounded and looked like a great nanny, but now the kids are older. We really love you, we want to keep you around, we want to give you something to do. You're capable, you're competent. Let's give you more responsibility. You're the estate manager. That's great, except that person doesn't know a lick about managing estate uh luxury properties. What what now this is a very interesting situation because you're setting, not only are you setting that person up for failure because they don't really know what to do, more importantly, you're setting up the relationship for failure. The reason why that is so important is because that could turn in if it goes downhill for long enough, that could turn into a lawsuit with someone who knows everything about you being on the other side of that lawsuit. And we've seen it, right? Unfortunately, there's been too many stories of that happening, right, in the in the newspapers, even that's the last thing you want. And you would never think that promoting this person to another job and giving them an opportunity could eventually lead to that. But if you don't have the steps in place to help support them in this new position, that's might that might be where it goes ultimately. And being able to connect those dots and see, oh, well, then how do I make sure that doesn't happen? How do I make sure that the scenario that I do want to happen, them being an estate manager and growing and feeling content and you know, learning new things and being good at what they do, that's not going to happen by itself or automatically. You have to set that up. Uh, so for that reason, obviously we do software, we have a community for estate managers, we have a podcast, we also have workshops because we realize how do you fill those gaps of knowledge to avoid a situation like that from happening? So now we have all these types of workshops that could be helpful. And obviously, you don't have to come to nines for that, but I think continuing education for people in this space is so important because, as Yaco said, that doesn't usually exist in private service, and just for the sake of them feeling like they're growing, that is huge for any human being, right? In any position, right?

Mark Wickersham, Host 28:52

I think that's great. I think uh those are common scenarios where trust is so important with these families and family offices that that it's a key part of the job description. But how do you take somebody that that's been trusted, is trusted, and then and help them evolve, help them evolve to continue to meet the needs of the family as well as their their own personal development, be the best version of themselves. I love this fact that you guys have created your own community with easemakers. Tell me about that organization. Why did you found it? Why why is community so important?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 29:27

Sure. So we started Easemakers a couple of months after we had pivoted to software. And while our engineers were building out the software, at least the first, you know, MVP, if you will, we were thinking, what else does this audience need? And we weren't necessarily talking about the principals themselves, we were talking about the the would-be power users in our software, the estate managers. And we realized that after speaking to so many of them, they are they are very lonely people because it's a very isolating industry, like even their own friends and family don't fully understand what they do, and they can't even tell them what they do in many cases because it's so private. The clients that they work for are so private. Um, I once spoke to an estate manager that didn't know what an estate manager was. I'm like, you're an estate manager. All those hats you're wearing, that makes you an estate manager. Um, so it's like not even knowing that the industry exists and yet being in it for multiple years, like that is wild. You don't hear that about other other industries. So we realized this industry uh it lacked community and it needed to have its own voice. So we started Easemakers. It's called Easemakers because they make ease for their principals. Our tagline, obviously. So I think it was very important for us to do that. Um, they love the community because they go there to share ideas and to ask for vendor recommendations. You know, like my principal's going to Paris tomorrow. I gotta find tickets to X, Y, and D. Can somebody help? Within minutes, you're gonna get an answer, right? It's an incredible community, it's so valuable and it's free. They don't have to use nines as long as they are that managerial tier in the in the in the household they're allowed in. No principals are allowed in, no vendors are allowed in, uh, no recruiters are allowed in. So we really made it a safe space for for that for those particular people in that community.

Mark Wickersham, Host 31:11

Um, this conversation has been great. I love to end the podcast on more of a personal note with three questions that have nothing to do with with wealth tech or in this case estate management. Jocko, you own a soccer club. I don't get to talk to uh sports uh you know owners uh too often. Tell me about the the club and and what why'd you start it?

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 31:33

For sure. Yeah. I would say uh yeah, if we're talking about the the personal side, like soccer has always been my passion. Uh wouldn't actually be here without soccer. So, like I said, originally from Amsterdam, then I moved to Italy to play soccer, and that's where I met my wife from New Jersey. So that's how I ended up here. Um, and yeah, just being from Europe, like every town has their own kind of soccer team, and then different towns play against each other on a Sunday, like the whole town comes out, and it's kind of like the social hub where people come together. Um, in the US, generally, like soccer is more around like youth sports and uh making money, really. That's what it comes down to as well. Uh, but a lot of competition on the youth side, but they don't really have something to aspire to become or grow towards in the soccer world, right? It's a big gap to becoming like the next Premier League player. Um, and so we really started something for those reasons. One, community, like a place for people to go to. Your early 20-year-olds play together uh on a team uh for all the the kids to watch and and interact with, and that's that inspires them. So that's really where it came from. And so it's FC Mohammed. We play in like a nationwide league. Uh so it's it's kind of like a semi-pro level. So it's it's it's fun.

Mark Wickersham, Host 32:48

Nice. I know soccer people have been saying, oh, soccer is gonna take hold in America, and they've been saying it for 30 years, but um it's I think it's finally finally is. I I think um women's soccer in particular, NWSL, I think, is one of the most competitive leagues out there. I think it's a great product. I enjoy the product better than the the men's product sometimes. There's there's not as much flopping, that's for sure. Umhamed, you were a personal trainer, um, which I think is just really interesting background. What do you what do you miss about it?

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 33:20

Well, I'm very grateful and I feel very blessed that I got to do what I did for so long. Uh, what I missed about it is I got to hang out with people one-on-one. But I enjoyed the people aspect more, like getting to know them, knowing what their goals are outside of getting a six-pack and losing weight. You know, what else do you want to accomplish in life? Like that, that's what juices me at the end of the day. Um, and to be to be able to get into a very vulnerable place with so many awesome, awesome, and in my case, sometimes very hard to reach individuals was exciting and unique. Um, I would never take it for granted. Uh, also, because of the places I worked the four seasons, the Ritz-Carlton, the Core Club, you know, different billionaire spots. Uh I was able to really put together very nice Rolodex. So, like, I I know some really incredible people who have been extremely helpful in my journey. Um, such as Mark Glory, which fun fact, Mark Laurie also owns a team.

Mark Wickersham, Host 34:18

So I'll throw this out to both of you guys in terms of career career uh life advice that you go back 20 years if you could talk to your younger self, what would you give?

Jacco de Bruijn, Nines 34:29

Yeah, it's a tough one because I mean I have kids now, and you you try to tell them something, but they really have to experience it, right? Um, so I I think for me too, like if I think about all the steps, like these are just dots that connected to each other and brought me here. So almost wouldn't want to change anything. But um I started in consulting and then a couple of years later got into software, and then really nines is the first time I I founded something myself. I was always more like an early employee, and um, so had the startup experience, but not not as a founder. I I think the big thing that I think about these days is really like this saying like you can just do anything, right? Like there's no conventional path you have to follow, or like every company, everything you see outside is started by someone. So um, especially when you're younger, like you you should just take some risk and try some things. And um, so yeah, I would say just uh just do it. That's the uh the slogan. I think you can just uh come up with something and try it out and and go for it. Uh and before you know, you uh you have this this company in like a well tech space that I never thought about.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 35:37

So I read a book called The Secret when I was 21, and that changed my life because it really changed the way I I perceived the world and what's possible. So if I had to go back and tell my younger self anything, I would say uh lead with gratitude. Obstacles are stepping stones and never ever stop. Because there have been moments where you know the whole idea of the secret is you have to visualize what you want and you have to feel it as though it's true already, and you work towards it. And at some point things will line up and miracles happen. Which you can say almost was, you know, how nines was born, how Yaku and I met each other, like we weren't working towards that, and yet it happened, and it and it was better than anything I could have imagined. And so sometimes you think you know what you want, but something better is around the corner. Uh don't be let down when doors closed, it means a bigger door is opening. So lots of different ways of saying the same thing. Stay positive, work towards your goal, and expect great things to happen.

Mark Wickersham, Host 36:35

Yeah, what's that saying they say about luck? Luck is, you know, you're you're luckier the harder you work, uh type of type of snake. You create your luck ultimately. Yeah, right, right. And I do think there's a lot to learn from uh from failure. One of the things I love about youth sports, I was a uh youth sports soccer coach for a long time is that you get to experience failure without tragedy. And I think too often you see a lot of parents try to shield their their children from from failure. I think uh failure is an important part of it. You you certainly learn a lot more sometimes from failure than you do your successes, and and to to embrace it and to pick yourself up, right? So um, this has been fantastic, gentlemen. What a great conversation! Really kind of a lot different than uh the conversation I normally have and as part of what I love it. I really appreciate you guys coming on the the podcast.

Mohamed Elzomor, Nines 37:26

Thanks, Mark. This has been awesome.

Mark Wickersham, Host 37:30

Good stuff. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Wealth Tech Podcast brought to you by Seta AI. Aceta is on a mission to modernize the family office. I really appreciate you listening, and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Talk to you soon.